Lead 12:12 Christian Leadership Podcasts

Moral Development

Would you break the law if you thought it would save the life of your spouse? Would you break the law if you thought it would save the life of a stranger? What does the Bible say about dealing with people at different stages of moral development? Episode 22 – Leadership Ethics Since I am […]

Mar 8, 2022 | 0 comments

Moral Development

Would you break the law if you thought it would save the life of your spouse? Would you break the law if you thought it would save the life of a stranger? What does the Bible say about dealing with people at different stages of moral development? Episode 22 – Leadership Ethics Since I am […]

Transcription:
1 00:00:34,444 --> 00:00:35,584 Hey everybody. 2 00:00:35,674 --> 00:00:37,984 It's good to see ya hope you're having a good day. 3 00:00:38,044 --> 00:00:39,064 I always say that. 4 00:00:39,064 --> 00:00:39,334 I know. 5 00:00:39,334 --> 00:00:40,054 I don't see you. 6 00:00:40,144 --> 00:00:42,364 You don't have to tell us that I'm not singing you. 7 00:00:42,514 --> 00:00:43,204 I get it. 8 00:00:43,414 --> 00:00:46,174 But we're excited about what God's doing through. 9 00:00:46,394 --> 00:00:47,323 Lead 12:12. 10 00:00:47,343 --> 00:00:48,723 lots of things are going on. 11 00:00:48,933 --> 00:00:52,503 Here's the quote that I want to start off with the best way to preach men 12 00:00:52,503 --> 00:00:54,483 to Christ is to preach Christ to men. 13 00:00:54,753 --> 00:00:55,473 Amen. 14 00:00:55,743 --> 00:00:56,463 That's good. 15 00:00:56,545 --> 00:00:59,875 As we think about that, what are we talking about today, Chris? 16 00:00:59,965 --> 00:01:01,825 We're going over Ethical leadership. 17 00:01:01,825 --> 00:01:03,865 And this is going to be a two-part series. 18 00:01:03,865 --> 00:01:05,035 So today's part one. 19 00:01:05,605 --> 00:01:07,735 And I think one of the most important things. 20 00:01:08,065 --> 00:01:12,364 With any kind of ethical things is to be reminded that Christ 21 00:01:12,394 --> 00:01:13,684 needs to be the center point. 22 00:01:13,804 --> 00:01:14,764 Amen to that. 23 00:01:14,794 --> 00:01:14,854 You 24 00:01:14,884 --> 00:01:15,664 do that. 25 00:01:16,114 --> 00:01:16,984 All morals. 26 00:01:16,984 --> 00:01:18,724 We'll follow live like Jesus. 27 00:01:18,803 --> 00:01:20,273 That's a pretty good morality. 28 00:01:20,543 --> 00:01:21,053 Jesus. 29 00:01:21,113 --> 00:01:21,623 That's it. 30 00:01:21,683 --> 00:01:22,103 That's the 31 00:01:22,703 --> 00:01:24,203 and that's a pretty high standard. 32 00:01:24,203 --> 00:01:24,533 Isn't it? 33 00:01:24,533 --> 00:01:24,863 Wayne. 34 00:01:25,403 --> 00:01:26,813 It is incredibly high. 35 00:01:26,993 --> 00:01:27,323 Yeah. 36 00:01:27,413 --> 00:01:28,133 it's tough. 37 00:01:28,208 --> 00:01:30,758 The way he loved people, the way he treated people. 38 00:01:30,758 --> 00:01:31,928 And I don't know about you guys. 39 00:01:31,958 --> 00:01:34,298 I sometimes think people can get ugly. 40 00:01:34,358 --> 00:01:35,138 Oh my gosh. 41 00:01:36,138 --> 00:01:36,618 Wayne. 42 00:01:36,708 --> 00:01:37,368 To start that way. 43 00:01:37,518 --> 00:01:38,448 Oh, 44 00:01:38,478 --> 00:01:38,898 boom. 45 00:01:38,928 --> 00:01:39,588 there it is. 46 00:01:39,858 --> 00:01:40,278 Drop. 47 00:01:40,278 --> 00:01:40,398 it. 48 00:01:40,398 --> 00:01:41,298 Like it's hot. 49 00:01:42,318 --> 00:01:42,948 No. 50 00:01:42,978 --> 00:01:44,688 We haven't even gotten into it yet. 51 00:01:45,018 --> 00:01:46,908 Wayne's already got a rim shot. 52 00:01:46,908 --> 00:01:47,928 way to go, buddy. 53 00:01:48,948 --> 00:01:49,158 It's 54 00:01:49,158 --> 00:01:52,108 exciting times here at lead 12:12. 55 00:01:52,128 --> 00:01:52,728 In the lead. 56 00:01:52,908 --> 00:01:54,468 All right, Chris you're on. 57 00:01:54,558 --> 00:01:55,308 Let's do it. 58 00:01:55,458 --> 00:01:55,668 Let me 59 00:01:55,668 --> 00:01:56,778 ask you guys a question. 60 00:01:56,778 --> 00:01:57,708 You're both leaders. 61 00:01:57,708 --> 00:01:58,578 at what you do. 62 00:01:58,998 --> 00:02:01,578 Is this statement true since I'm the leader. 63 00:02:01,788 --> 00:02:01,938 I 64 00:02:01,938 --> 00:02:03,768 can do anything I want. 65 00:02:04,188 --> 00:02:05,208 Is that true or false? 66 00:02:05,958 --> 00:02:06,168 That 67 00:02:06,168 --> 00:02:07,218 is false. 68 00:02:07,608 --> 00:02:07,938 Wayne. 69 00:02:08,938 --> 00:02:09,028 I 70 00:02:09,028 --> 00:02:09,748 think it's true. 71 00:02:10,138 --> 00:02:11,398 Oh, we got to split. 72 00:02:12,718 --> 00:02:13,048 lot 73 00:02:13,078 --> 00:02:14,038 of people believe that 74 00:02:14,038 --> 00:02:16,108 the leader can do anything they want to do. 75 00:02:16,258 --> 00:02:18,238 and that can lead you to a bad road. 76 00:02:18,238 --> 00:02:19,138 We'll go down that. 77 00:02:19,138 --> 00:02:20,098 So I was right. 78 00:02:21,118 --> 00:02:21,778 You got it. 79 00:02:21,868 --> 00:02:22,438 Yes. 80 00:02:22,948 --> 00:02:24,028 Loser. 81 00:02:24,028 --> 00:02:24,268 No. 82 00:02:24,298 --> 00:02:24,658 Sorry. 83 00:02:25,138 --> 00:02:25,318 I'm 84 00:02:25,348 --> 00:02:27,538 I'm really saying that from. 85 00:02:28,049 --> 00:02:29,339 Anybody can do anything. 86 00:02:29,339 --> 00:02:30,989 they want, but there are consequences. 87 00:02:31,019 --> 00:02:32,249 There are consequences. 88 00:02:32,249 --> 00:02:32,609 Now 89 00:02:32,789 --> 00:02:33,629 going to deep 90 00:02:33,689 --> 00:02:34,079 in it. 91 00:02:34,139 --> 00:02:35,849 It's just a true, false question. 92 00:02:35,849 --> 00:02:36,599 My brother. 93 00:02:36,839 --> 00:02:38,159 Have either of you guys know. 94 00:02:38,279 --> 00:02:40,109 The leader who thought that was true? 95 00:02:40,949 --> 00:02:42,329 Absolutely a hundred percent. 96 00:02:42,359 --> 00:02:42,989 for sure. 97 00:02:43,989 --> 00:02:45,009 And it's not good. 98 00:02:45,279 --> 00:02:46,599 It's not good at all. 99 00:02:46,809 --> 00:02:51,249 ' cause it's a lorded over you type situation and that's unhealthy. 100 00:02:51,429 --> 00:02:51,909 And. 101 00:02:51,909 --> 00:02:53,679 is unhealthy, very unhealthy. 102 00:02:53,949 --> 00:02:58,779 And no matter what kind of leadership you do, you have to be accountable to someone. 103 00:02:59,049 --> 00:03:01,479 Because if you're not you'll end up blowing in at the 104 00:03:01,509 --> 00:03:01,689 end. 105 00:03:01,756 --> 00:03:02,280 That's true. 106 00:03:02,370 --> 00:03:05,820 If you're only accountable to yourself, yourself can let you down. 107 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:06,900 Let me ask you. 108 00:03:06,900 --> 00:03:07,860 guys Another question. 109 00:03:07,860 --> 00:03:08,400 How would each 110 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:09,630 of you define. 111 00:03:09,930 --> 00:03:10,530 ethics? 112 00:03:11,790 --> 00:03:12,660 Oh, that's a good one. 113 00:03:12,660 --> 00:03:13,890 Wayne, how would you do that? 114 00:03:15,210 --> 00:03:16,260 So you got, I did there. 115 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:17,400 Got you on the spot, huh? 116 00:03:18,453 --> 00:03:19,503 I don't think that. 117 00:03:20,070 --> 00:03:20,910 Ethics is 118 00:03:20,910 --> 00:03:21,990 Necessarily. 119 00:03:22,170 --> 00:03:22,710 earlier. 120 00:03:23,100 --> 00:03:23,640 Christian. 121 00:03:23,700 --> 00:03:24,270 Concept. 122 00:03:25,109 --> 00:03:26,099 In either case. 123 00:03:26,159 --> 00:03:27,119 It's just really. 124 00:03:28,379 --> 00:03:28,755 Kind of. 125 00:03:29,255 --> 00:03:30,725 does this action. 126 00:03:31,415 --> 00:03:32,255 Blake something. 127 00:03:33,095 --> 00:03:34,655 that is going to positively impact. 128 00:03:35,645 --> 00:03:36,035 On the. 129 00:03:36,635 --> 00:03:38,225 mud it's carried out. 130 00:03:38,735 --> 00:03:39,815 in an up and up way. 131 00:03:41,015 --> 00:03:41,525 I get you. 132 00:03:41,675 --> 00:03:42,125 Okay. 133 00:03:42,425 --> 00:03:43,025 I get your day. 134 00:03:43,025 --> 00:03:43,625 What do you say? 135 00:03:43,655 --> 00:03:45,185 I've always thought it's you. 136 00:03:45,185 --> 00:03:47,825 when you know, you take the moral high ground. 137 00:03:47,975 --> 00:03:50,855 And your morals dictate. 138 00:03:52,325 --> 00:03:53,975 The way you live and the way you act. 139 00:03:54,005 --> 00:03:56,285 And that's always what I thought ethics is. 140 00:03:56,643 --> 00:04:01,803 For me though, as a Christian, my ethics are again, only 141 00:04:01,803 --> 00:04:03,393 derived from who Christ is. 142 00:04:03,393 --> 00:04:07,288 And so when I put it that way, my ethics I've got a standard. 143 00:04:07,528 --> 00:04:07,648 If 144 00:04:07,708 --> 00:04:08,068 goodness. 145 00:04:08,098 --> 00:04:08,368 Yes. 146 00:04:08,368 --> 00:04:09,298 every ethics. 147 00:04:09,628 --> 00:04:13,684 Has to have a standard, and I No matter who you are, there has to be a standard 148 00:04:13,684 --> 00:04:15,664 for what you are building up to. 149 00:04:16,234 --> 00:04:17,014 Does that make sense? 150 00:04:17,014 --> 00:04:17,704 Or am I way off. 151 00:04:17,914 --> 00:04:18,814 It's absolute sense. 152 00:04:18,814 --> 00:04:19,834 And you're Exactly right. 153 00:04:19,834 --> 00:04:25,504 Morals are what leads to ethics and that's such a great transition point. 154 00:04:25,714 --> 00:04:25,834 Will. 155 00:04:26,044 --> 00:04:27,304 And we'll get to that just in a minute. 156 00:04:27,334 --> 00:04:32,554 With Kohlberg, but would you believe that people may have different morals 157 00:04:32,554 --> 00:04:34,444 which may lead to different ethics? 158 00:04:35,254 --> 00:04:37,024 It absolutely is true. 159 00:04:37,024 --> 00:04:38,357 And that's, It all depends. 160 00:04:38,537 --> 00:04:41,807 And in a lot of that religiously where people come from. 161 00:04:41,807 --> 00:04:45,264 and, we make sure everyone knows this is a Christian podcast. 162 00:04:46,464 --> 00:04:47,164 Amen, 163 00:04:47,214 --> 00:04:48,294 didn't hear the amens. 164 00:04:48,354 --> 00:04:48,694 And you did 165 00:04:48,764 --> 00:04:53,924 But with that, I think you do have different religions have 166 00:04:53,924 --> 00:04:55,364 different moral high grounds. 167 00:04:55,394 --> 00:04:55,874 I think. 168 00:04:55,874 --> 00:04:58,364 And what's for example, like. 169 00:04:58,391 --> 00:04:59,587 There are some churches that. 170 00:04:59,587 --> 00:05:02,197 think that men can have 37 wives. 171 00:05:02,587 --> 00:05:04,357 That's crazy to me. 172 00:05:04,627 --> 00:05:05,017 but. 173 00:05:06,487 --> 00:05:08,287 I do good with the one I have. 174 00:05:08,317 --> 00:05:09,388 I'm blessed. 175 00:05:09,888 --> 00:05:11,898 I just know she won't listen, so that's good. 176 00:05:12,898 --> 00:05:13,798 Oh, my gosh. 177 00:05:13,858 --> 00:05:16,168 She might listen, somebody will tell her. 178 00:05:16,888 --> 00:05:17,278 Yes. 179 00:05:17,338 --> 00:05:21,560 But it's really important that doesn't dictate the way I am towards my 180 00:05:21,590 --> 00:05:25,190 family, because my family is different someone else's and white the way out. 181 00:05:25,460 --> 00:05:26,300 my moral. 182 00:05:26,660 --> 00:05:28,100 What's the word I'm looking for, Chris. 183 00:05:28,460 --> 00:05:30,380 My moral high grounds, the Bible. 184 00:05:30,464 --> 00:05:34,514 Ultimately, and if the Bible says it, then I want to live it. 185 00:05:34,724 --> 00:05:35,774 that's absolutely right. 186 00:05:35,774 --> 00:05:37,544 You got another one, man. 187 00:05:38,054 --> 00:05:38,624 That's two. 188 00:05:38,834 --> 00:05:39,284 Wayne. 189 00:05:39,284 --> 00:05:40,904 I'm killing you, man. 190 00:05:40,934 --> 00:05:41,534 I'm losing. 191 00:05:42,104 --> 00:05:42,254 It's 192 00:05:42,884 --> 00:05:45,284 Ethics is derivative of the Greek word. 193 00:05:45,344 --> 00:05:45,824 at those. 194 00:05:45,824 --> 00:05:48,074 I think everyone knew that and that means customs. 195 00:05:48,074 --> 00:05:49,664 conduct or character. 196 00:05:50,174 --> 00:05:52,784 And it's concerned with the kinds of values and morals and 197 00:05:52,784 --> 00:05:57,524 individual or society ascribes to be desirable or appropriate. 198 00:05:57,974 --> 00:06:01,874 And it focuses on the virtuousness of individuals and their motive. 199 00:06:01,874 --> 00:06:02,444 So motives. 200 00:06:02,504 --> 00:06:03,884 is a huge part of ethics. 201 00:06:03,884 --> 00:06:04,964 Wouldn't everyone agree to that? 202 00:06:05,444 --> 00:06:06,194 Yes. 203 00:06:06,974 --> 00:06:07,544 I was that. 204 00:06:08,067 --> 00:06:08,877 In unison. 205 00:06:09,867 --> 00:06:11,727 So now we get to something really interesting. 206 00:06:12,027 --> 00:06:13,227 In 1958. 207 00:06:13,257 --> 00:06:16,347 A guy named Lawrence Kohlberg had the idea that moral 208 00:06:16,347 --> 00:06:18,267 reasoning was linked to cognitive 209 00:06:18,267 --> 00:06:18,927 development. 210 00:06:19,437 --> 00:06:21,597 In other words, your moral development. 211 00:06:21,987 --> 00:06:23,877 Has to do with your intelligence. 212 00:06:24,777 --> 00:06:28,017 Nicole Berg studied this by posing questions about morality 213 00:06:28,107 --> 00:06:30,537 to children, ages 10 to 16. 214 00:06:31,227 --> 00:06:31,347 And 215 00:06:31,347 --> 00:06:32,247 what he found was there. 216 00:06:32,247 --> 00:06:34,287 was Three levels of moral development 217 00:06:34,377 --> 00:06:35,697 and each level has two 218 00:06:35,697 --> 00:06:36,537 stages. 219 00:06:36,927 --> 00:06:40,677 Kohlberg also noted that people progress through these in a fixed order. 220 00:06:40,677 --> 00:06:42,777 In other words, you can't skip steps. 221 00:06:43,287 --> 00:06:45,897 One of the best known of Kohlberg's stories is one 222 00:06:45,897 --> 00:06:47,067 We're going to do right now. 223 00:06:47,187 --> 00:06:47,367 So 224 00:06:47,367 --> 00:06:50,067 you guys listened to this and I've got some questions for you and your 225 00:06:50,067 --> 00:06:51,957 answers may be different on this. 226 00:06:51,957 --> 00:06:53,607 So please just answer honestly. 227 00:06:53,997 --> 00:06:55,497 Time with Chris Storytime. 228 00:06:56,497 --> 00:06:57,397 Yeah, there you go. 229 00:06:57,547 --> 00:07:00,787 This is about a man named Heinz who lived somewhere in Europe. 230 00:07:00,907 --> 00:07:02,287 That's all the background you need. 231 00:07:02,617 --> 00:07:02,977 So 232 00:07:03,367 --> 00:07:05,437 Heinz His wife was dying. 233 00:07:05,527 --> 00:07:07,567 from a particular type of cancer. 234 00:07:08,227 --> 00:07:10,867 The doctor said a new drug may save her. 235 00:07:11,107 --> 00:07:14,167 And the drug was discovered by a local chemist. 236 00:07:14,797 --> 00:07:19,417 Heinz tried desperately to buy some, but the chemist was charging 10 times 237 00:07:19,417 --> 00:07:21,187 the money it cost to make the drug. 238 00:07:21,217 --> 00:07:23,767 And this was way more than Heinz could afford. 239 00:07:24,907 --> 00:07:27,307 Heinz could only raise half the money. 240 00:07:27,667 --> 00:07:30,067 Even after help from family and friends. 241 00:07:30,427 --> 00:07:33,127 He explained to the chemist that his wife was dying. 242 00:07:33,397 --> 00:07:36,937 and ask if he could have the drug cheaper or even just pay him the full amount. 243 00:07:36,937 --> 00:07:37,657 But later. 244 00:07:38,497 --> 00:07:41,257 The chemist refused saying that he discovered the drug. 245 00:07:41,257 --> 00:07:42,187 and was going to make money. 246 00:07:42,187 --> 00:07:42,697 from it. 247 00:07:43,507 --> 00:07:46,417 The husband that's as high as was desperate to save his wife. 248 00:07:46,417 --> 00:07:50,617 So later that night he broke into the chemists and stole the drug. 249 00:07:51,877 --> 00:07:53,617 Now the questions Dave, I want to start with. 250 00:07:53,617 --> 00:07:55,357 you should Heinz have stolen the drug. 251 00:07:56,377 --> 00:07:56,827 no. 252 00:07:57,517 --> 00:07:58,117 And why not? 253 00:07:59,587 --> 00:08:01,267 Because it's not ethically. 254 00:08:01,267 --> 00:08:03,122 Even if it meant his wife was going to die. 255 00:08:03,872 --> 00:08:04,952 It's in God's hands. 256 00:08:05,492 --> 00:08:06,852 That's a good way to look at that. 257 00:08:07,352 --> 00:08:09,632 Wayne, what do you say should Heinz have stole the drug? 258 00:08:10,632 --> 00:08:11,592 Probably not. 259 00:08:12,252 --> 00:08:12,642 Interesting. 260 00:08:12,672 --> 00:08:14,142 I can get by Why did. 261 00:08:15,252 --> 00:08:15,462 And 262 00:08:15,522 --> 00:08:16,422 you'd asked me. 263 00:08:17,422 --> 00:08:18,742 Do I want him to 264 00:08:18,892 --> 00:08:19,282 that's. 265 00:08:20,102 --> 00:08:20,897 Yeah, We're not, yeah. 266 00:08:20,957 --> 00:08:21,377 we're not. 267 00:08:21,377 --> 00:08:23,207 asking legally What's right or wrong. 268 00:08:23,207 --> 00:08:23,717 We're asking. 269 00:08:23,717 --> 00:08:24,317 morally. 270 00:08:24,317 --> 00:08:25,577 Yeah, And I get that. 271 00:08:25,577 --> 00:08:27,917 and I get both sides and I'm sure somebody listened to it 272 00:08:27,977 --> 00:08:29,777 will think I'm a horrible person. 273 00:08:30,077 --> 00:08:33,385 But if my gauge is the Bible, then the answer's pretty 274 00:08:33,415 --> 00:08:34,765 right there in front of me. 275 00:08:34,765 --> 00:08:35,785 No, he shouldn't have stolen. 276 00:08:36,055 --> 00:08:37,928 So now here's an interesting question. 277 00:08:37,955 --> 00:08:38,735 Wayne, I'll start with you. 278 00:08:38,735 --> 00:08:42,935 This time, would it change anything if Heinz did not love his wife? 279 00:08:43,295 --> 00:08:43,595 Sure. 280 00:08:43,925 --> 00:08:44,636 In what way? 281 00:08:44,636 --> 00:08:45,789 When I was in college. 282 00:08:45,999 --> 00:08:47,169 I took an ethics class. 283 00:08:47,469 --> 00:08:48,069 And the 284 00:08:48,249 --> 00:08:50,169 question was posed if you. 285 00:08:51,399 --> 00:08:52,659 Pulled your father over. 286 00:08:53,179 --> 00:08:54,439 And he. 287 00:08:55,189 --> 00:08:56,029 It Was drunk. 288 00:08:56,149 --> 00:08:57,109 What'd you take him to jail. 289 00:08:57,109 --> 00:08:57,739 or take him home? 290 00:08:58,069 --> 00:08:58,969 Interesting question. 291 00:08:59,029 --> 00:09:00,559 And I said, I would take him home. 292 00:09:00,769 --> 00:09:01,549 And somebody said. 293 00:09:01,579 --> 00:09:02,389 I'd take him to jail. 294 00:09:03,019 --> 00:09:03,859 And the teacher said 295 00:09:03,961 --> 00:09:04,951 More kind of relationship. 296 00:09:04,951 --> 00:09:05,941 Did you have with your father? 297 00:09:07,381 --> 00:09:07,471 It 298 00:09:07,471 --> 00:09:08,161 wasn't a good one. 299 00:09:08,161 --> 00:09:08,671 I'm guessing. 300 00:09:09,451 --> 00:09:09,631 Yeah. 301 00:09:09,751 --> 00:09:11,191 It may take him home if it was a bad one. 302 00:09:11,701 --> 00:09:12,241 Take him to jail. 303 00:09:13,111 --> 00:09:13,621 Yeah, actually. 304 00:09:13,651 --> 00:09:15,031 I actually did take my dad home. 305 00:09:15,031 --> 00:09:15,721 So there you go. 306 00:09:15,747 --> 00:09:17,817 On that let's go back to Heinz, right? 307 00:09:18,117 --> 00:09:18,417 Yeah. 308 00:09:18,567 --> 00:09:19,677 The Question to you, Dave. 309 00:09:19,677 --> 00:09:20,757 Would it change anything? 310 00:09:20,757 --> 00:09:22,857 if Heinz did not love his wife? 311 00:09:23,937 --> 00:09:24,057 I'm 312 00:09:24,057 --> 00:09:24,387 sure 313 00:09:24,477 --> 00:09:24,867 would. 314 00:09:24,917 --> 00:09:25,787 I shouldn't. 315 00:09:25,860 --> 00:09:27,420 As far as moral high ground. 316 00:09:27,630 --> 00:09:28,770 You do what's right. 317 00:09:29,670 --> 00:09:30,130 But. 318 00:09:30,130 --> 00:09:30,622 Yeah. 319 00:09:30,802 --> 00:09:31,252 A. 320 00:09:31,882 --> 00:09:33,862 It would change a lot of things if he didn't. 321 00:09:34,012 --> 00:09:36,442 love her, it would be easier for him not to do it. 322 00:09:36,502 --> 00:09:39,323 If he did love her, it'd be, I think it's is. 323 00:09:39,893 --> 00:09:40,163 Am I. 324 00:09:40,223 --> 00:09:40,433 work. 325 00:09:40,673 --> 00:09:41,333 No, I agree. 326 00:09:41,903 --> 00:09:42,023 Yeah. 327 00:09:42,083 --> 00:09:43,973 I want to back up and I want to answer number one. 328 00:09:43,973 --> 00:09:46,043 because my answer is different than yours. 329 00:09:46,733 --> 00:09:48,053 And you guys are absolutely right. 330 00:09:48,053 --> 00:09:51,533 God is in charge, but just knowing my personality. 331 00:09:51,743 --> 00:09:53,153 I would have broken in. 332 00:09:53,243 --> 00:09:54,593 and I would have stole that. 333 00:09:55,073 --> 00:09:56,453 I would've given it to my wife. 334 00:09:56,483 --> 00:09:59,033 And then I would have went to the police and turned myself in and said, Hey. 335 00:09:59,093 --> 00:10:00,923 I would left all the money I had. 336 00:10:00,923 --> 00:10:04,180 I tried to give him my car and said, I stole this from my wife. 337 00:10:04,180 --> 00:10:06,310 We're going to see if she gets better, but take me to jail. 338 00:10:06,910 --> 00:10:07,000 I 339 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:08,410 think that's a great answer. 340 00:10:08,590 --> 00:10:08,860 Aye. 341 00:10:09,407 --> 00:10:12,107 I don't know if there's a right or wrong answer. 342 00:10:12,107 --> 00:10:13,607 I get both sides of it. 343 00:10:13,637 --> 00:10:15,527 And honestly 344 00:10:15,587 --> 00:10:16,457 thinking on it, 345 00:10:16,487 --> 00:10:17,439 I love my wife. 346 00:10:17,467 --> 00:10:18,127 I think she. 347 00:10:18,127 --> 00:10:18,217 was. 348 00:10:18,265 --> 00:10:19,315 That's hard, man. 349 00:10:19,315 --> 00:10:20,065 That's a tough one. 350 00:10:20,065 --> 00:10:21,005 What do you think Wayne? 351 00:10:21,005 --> 00:10:21,618 Ethically. 352 00:10:21,948 --> 00:10:24,348 We probably shouldn't do it, but it makes me think of. 353 00:10:24,978 --> 00:10:27,048 When Jesus was talking when they were talking to. 354 00:10:27,438 --> 00:10:28,248 Jesus about. 355 00:10:28,356 --> 00:10:31,026 His disciples didn't work on the Sabbath and all these rules. 356 00:10:31,026 --> 00:10:32,226 And then he talked about David. 357 00:10:32,646 --> 00:10:33,696 Going into the temple. 358 00:10:34,176 --> 00:10:34,296 Yeah. 359 00:10:34,416 --> 00:10:39,066 And feeding him and his men with the bread of the presence and all of that. 360 00:10:39,666 --> 00:10:40,236 And he was like, 361 00:10:40,896 --> 00:10:41,076 Hey 362 00:10:41,130 --> 00:10:41,880 Is that really. 363 00:10:42,450 --> 00:10:43,560 You're talking to the letter. 364 00:10:44,940 --> 00:10:45,600 Versus, 365 00:10:45,646 --> 00:10:45,991 yeah. 366 00:10:46,681 --> 00:10:49,358 the thing is it's breaking the law and that's. 367 00:10:49,358 --> 00:10:51,008 the thing you have to get back to. 368 00:10:51,458 --> 00:10:54,322 And it's a tough, that is a tough answer. 369 00:10:54,358 --> 00:10:56,878 I'm curious what people listening things. 370 00:10:56,878 --> 00:10:59,964 Please make sure you talk to us and tell us those things. 371 00:10:59,994 --> 00:11:00,624 what you think 372 00:11:00,744 --> 00:11:02,002 this is a good stuff. 373 00:11:02,032 --> 00:11:03,712 We've got two more questions here. 374 00:11:03,952 --> 00:11:04,822 Here's the third. 375 00:11:04,822 --> 00:11:05,092 one. 376 00:11:05,392 --> 00:11:06,382 And you touched on this. 377 00:11:06,382 --> 00:11:06,982 Dave, I'm going 378 00:11:06,982 --> 00:11:07,702 to ask you first. 379 00:11:07,702 --> 00:11:09,982 What if The person dying was a stranger. 380 00:11:10,072 --> 00:11:10,642 to Heinz? 381 00:11:10,642 --> 00:11:11,752 Would that make a difference? 382 00:11:12,270 --> 00:11:12,750 No. 383 00:11:13,500 --> 00:11:16,770 To me, it would, it probably should not, but to me it would. 384 00:11:17,070 --> 00:11:18,000 Wayne, what about you? 385 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:20,170 Corporately. 386 00:11:20,410 --> 00:11:20,620 Yeah. 387 00:11:20,620 --> 00:11:21,430 if you're talking. 388 00:11:21,550 --> 00:11:22,390 big picture. 389 00:11:23,230 --> 00:11:23,650 No. 390 00:11:24,010 --> 00:11:25,600 I don't think it would have made a difference. 391 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:27,250 But that's assuming. 392 00:11:28,090 --> 00:11:28,870 That you're. 393 00:11:29,500 --> 00:11:31,780 A person who, if you see somebody. 394 00:11:32,290 --> 00:11:33,430 It need like. 395 00:11:33,430 --> 00:11:34,750 out that you don't know. 396 00:11:34,750 --> 00:11:36,280 like someone that's homeless or. 397 00:11:36,700 --> 00:11:37,630 That's panhandling. 398 00:11:38,740 --> 00:11:40,150 If you are the person who 399 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:41,950 helps those people out. 400 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:43,810 Then the answer is different. 401 00:11:44,290 --> 00:11:46,870 But if you're not, then maybe the answer is. 402 00:11:47,470 --> 00:11:48,490 I probably would 403 00:11:48,490 --> 00:11:48,760 not. 404 00:11:48,790 --> 00:11:49,780 Break in and 405 00:11:49,780 --> 00:11:50,230 steal. 406 00:11:50,230 --> 00:11:51,100 For a stranger. 407 00:11:51,130 --> 00:11:51,220 And. 408 00:11:51,220 --> 00:11:51,980 He go to jail. 409 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,060 Doing the right thing is doing the right thing. 410 00:11:55,210 --> 00:11:57,440 So maybe I would do the right thing. 411 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,150 no matter whatever it is. 412 00:11:59,150 --> 00:12:00,350 I wouldn't break the law. 413 00:12:01,250 --> 00:12:02,060 Does that make sense? 414 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,220 And that's your morals. 415 00:12:04,250 --> 00:12:05,630 I would, in that case, 416 00:12:05,630 --> 00:12:05,780 I. 417 00:12:05,780 --> 00:12:06,290 got ya. 418 00:12:06,830 --> 00:12:08,030 the answer is Now going to be. 419 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:09,290 I want to do what's right. 420 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:10,469 Yeah. 421 00:12:10,541 --> 00:12:12,971 Let me add a twist to This This is the last answer. 422 00:12:12,971 --> 00:12:13,211 Wayne. 423 00:12:13,211 --> 00:12:14,861 I'm going to start with you and sorry, the last question. 424 00:12:15,191 --> 00:12:16,271 Should The police 425 00:12:16,361 --> 00:12:18,131 arrest the chemist for murder. 426 00:12:18,311 --> 00:12:19,701 If Heinz wife died. 427 00:12:20,201 --> 00:12:21,011 For murder. 428 00:12:21,941 --> 00:12:22,811 not for murder. 429 00:12:23,081 --> 00:12:23,711 I think. 430 00:12:24,731 --> 00:12:25,571 That's a good question. 431 00:12:25,971 --> 00:12:28,205 Y is manslaughter. 432 00:12:29,045 --> 00:12:31,685 Lesser than murder when it sounds so much terrible. 433 00:12:32,345 --> 00:12:32,915 I don't know. 434 00:12:33,455 --> 00:12:35,015 Would you rather be murdered or slaughters? 435 00:12:35,345 --> 00:12:35,945 Exactly. 436 00:12:36,185 --> 00:12:36,605 right. 437 00:12:36,695 --> 00:12:36,965 And you 438 00:12:37,025 --> 00:12:38,705 arrest him for being a jerk? 439 00:12:39,185 --> 00:12:40,025 That's a good one. 440 00:12:40,925 --> 00:12:41,885 I cut you off. 441 00:12:41,915 --> 00:12:42,845 Wayne, what was your answer 442 00:12:42,875 --> 00:12:45,125 This whole conversation has made me think of. 443 00:12:45,643 --> 00:12:46,243 It begins. 444 00:12:46,543 --> 00:12:47,173 Oh, yeah. 445 00:12:47,223 --> 00:12:48,677 That's really a good way to look at that. 446 00:12:48,681 --> 00:12:49,701 Those don't cost a lot. 447 00:12:50,841 --> 00:12:51,681 oh, 448 00:12:51,711 --> 00:12:53,271 charge you a Fortune. 449 00:12:53,301 --> 00:12:54,531 for them in some people. 450 00:12:55,131 --> 00:12:56,301 Insurance doesn't cover it. 451 00:12:56,571 --> 00:12:58,041 The way that it needs to, and. 452 00:12:58,701 --> 00:13:00,471 You're end up in those kinds of. 453 00:13:00,861 --> 00:13:01,551 situations. 454 00:13:01,671 --> 00:13:02,571 this in real life. 455 00:13:02,631 --> 00:13:04,439 I have a daughter that has severe allergy 456 00:13:04,439 --> 00:13:06,703 Dave, to you, should the police arrest the chemist. 457 00:13:06,823 --> 00:13:08,333 If she, if the wife dies. 458 00:13:08,333 --> 00:13:09,386 That's a great question. 459 00:13:09,457 --> 00:13:11,377 What law did the chemist break? 460 00:13:11,437 --> 00:13:11,527 That's. 461 00:13:11,767 --> 00:13:12,367 And that's it. 462 00:13:12,367 --> 00:13:12,697 He didn't 463 00:13:12,697 --> 00:13:13,537 break any law. 464 00:13:13,567 --> 00:13:15,007 He was a jerk, like you said, 465 00:13:15,037 --> 00:13:16,297 the answer is no. 466 00:13:16,297 --> 00:13:16,627 Now. 467 00:13:16,897 --> 00:13:19,957 if you ask me, do I want him to them to, yes. 468 00:13:19,957 --> 00:13:21,517 Do I want something to happen to me? 469 00:13:21,787 --> 00:13:22,297 Yes. 470 00:13:22,357 --> 00:13:26,227 I want, I hate people who are mean and can be jerks. 471 00:13:26,647 --> 00:13:29,107 And so that's really tough for me. 472 00:13:29,137 --> 00:13:30,107 Does that make sense? 473 00:13:30,135 --> 00:13:30,795 Yeah. 474 00:13:31,215 --> 00:13:34,395 Now based on these stories and this one, specifically, in these. 475 00:13:34,425 --> 00:13:35,265 four questions. 476 00:13:35,715 --> 00:13:36,405 Kohlberg 477 00:13:36,615 --> 00:13:40,395 ask, Remember children ages 10 to 16 and he came up with. 478 00:13:40,395 --> 00:13:41,935 these six levels of. 479 00:13:41,965 --> 00:13:43,315 He came up with three levels. 480 00:13:43,765 --> 00:13:45,475 of moral development and each one has 481 00:13:45,475 --> 00:13:46,345 two stages. 482 00:13:46,375 --> 00:13:46,525 Let 483 00:13:46,525 --> 00:13:47,395 me go over those. 484 00:13:47,425 --> 00:13:48,685 The first one is called. 485 00:13:48,985 --> 00:13:50,785 pre-conventional morality. 486 00:13:51,265 --> 00:13:53,455 It's the initial stage of moral development. 487 00:13:53,575 --> 00:13:57,115 and it lasts until the kids are riding around nine or 10 years old. 488 00:13:57,655 --> 00:14:00,835 They don't have a personal moral code at this level. 489 00:14:01,045 --> 00:14:02,815 And the moral decisions are made or the. 490 00:14:03,085 --> 00:14:06,415 Excuse me, the made by the adult standards and the consequences 491 00:14:06,415 --> 00:14:07,645 of following the rules. 492 00:14:08,035 --> 00:14:10,465 For example, if an action leads to punishment. 493 00:14:10,525 --> 00:14:11,665 it must be bad. 494 00:14:12,115 --> 00:14:15,115 And if an action leads to reward, it must be good. 495 00:14:15,595 --> 00:14:17,035 Authority is outside 496 00:14:17,065 --> 00:14:20,245 the individual and children often make moral decisions based 497 00:14:20,275 --> 00:14:21,715 on the physical consequences 498 00:14:21,715 --> 00:14:22,375 of actions. 499 00:14:22,405 --> 00:14:22,585 They've. 500 00:14:22,585 --> 00:14:23,215 How does that square 501 00:14:23,215 --> 00:14:23,935 with your kids? 502 00:14:24,655 --> 00:14:25,195 As far. 503 00:14:25,742 --> 00:14:27,902 As far as what specifically. 504 00:14:27,962 --> 00:14:29,282 If someone breaks 505 00:14:29,312 --> 00:14:31,832 a rule it's wrong, no matter what the rule. 506 00:14:31,832 --> 00:14:32,192 is. 507 00:14:32,192 --> 00:14:33,182 In a kid's mind. 508 00:14:33,182 --> 00:14:34,262 to do a certain age. 509 00:14:34,802 --> 00:14:35,552 Aye. 510 00:14:36,212 --> 00:14:36,902 My kids. 511 00:14:36,902 --> 00:14:38,222 You never know what they're going to think. 512 00:14:38,252 --> 00:14:38,312 Yeah. 513 00:14:39,422 --> 00:14:40,292 Waking up about you. 514 00:14:41,292 --> 00:14:41,562 the most. 515 00:14:41,592 --> 00:14:42,702 Most part that's true. 516 00:14:42,882 --> 00:14:45,582 Especially if I break the rule. 517 00:14:45,822 --> 00:14:46,482 Oh yeah. 518 00:14:46,872 --> 00:14:49,032 if I break the rule, they know it to the letter. 519 00:14:49,122 --> 00:14:49,932 If they break the rule. 520 00:14:49,962 --> 00:14:50,425 it's Yeah. 521 00:14:50,425 --> 00:14:50,815 That's 522 00:14:50,845 --> 00:14:51,145 that? 523 00:14:51,205 --> 00:14:51,505 That's 524 00:14:51,505 --> 00:14:52,165 very true. 525 00:14:52,225 --> 00:14:54,115 I think I, I see that as well. 526 00:14:54,175 --> 00:14:54,295 One. 527 00:14:54,325 --> 00:14:54,415 One. 528 00:14:54,445 --> 00:14:55,135 The studies. 529 00:14:55,135 --> 00:14:56,245 that I looked at during. 530 00:14:56,245 --> 00:14:57,745 the research for this podcast. 531 00:14:57,745 --> 00:14:59,605 was one of the things that Kohlberg found. 532 00:15:00,115 --> 00:15:00,595 was that 533 00:15:00,595 --> 00:15:02,035 kids will attribute 534 00:15:02,185 --> 00:15:04,675 wrongness to an action based on the severity of. 535 00:15:04,675 --> 00:15:07,805 the rule broken and not have it not take. 536 00:15:08,305 --> 00:15:09,955 I guess Desire or anything like that. 537 00:15:09,955 --> 00:15:10,555 into play. 538 00:15:11,275 --> 00:15:13,615 For example, if a kid picks up a glass. 539 00:15:13,765 --> 00:15:16,975 and smashes it down, intentionally breaking the glass. 540 00:15:17,455 --> 00:15:19,435 The kit, both the kid and they don't, we'll say that's wrong. 541 00:15:19,435 --> 00:15:20,125 He broke the glass. 542 00:15:20,125 --> 00:15:22,645 But if a kid goes running through a door and the door 543 00:15:22,675 --> 00:15:24,385 smashes into a tray of glasses, 544 00:15:24,385 --> 00:15:25,765 and breaks five glasses, 545 00:15:26,095 --> 00:15:30,565 A child under 10 will tell you that child is more wrong than the first one, because 546 00:15:30,565 --> 00:15:32,395 the motive that motive doesn't matter. 547 00:15:32,425 --> 00:15:35,905 the kid broke five glasses there for that is worse than breaking one glass. 548 00:15:36,715 --> 00:15:37,045 Wow. 549 00:15:38,059 --> 00:15:40,279 What are your thoughts with that, Chris? 550 00:15:41,089 --> 00:15:43,129 I think that's like Kohlberg suggested. 551 00:15:43,159 --> 00:15:46,639 It's definitely tied to cognitive development Children don't 552 00:15:46,639 --> 00:15:49,999 understand motives at that age, so they can't take them into account. 553 00:15:50,359 --> 00:15:50,929 I got you. 554 00:15:50,989 --> 00:15:51,979 What do you think Wayne? 555 00:15:52,189 --> 00:15:52,309 It 556 00:15:52,309 --> 00:15:52,849 reminds me. 557 00:15:52,939 --> 00:15:53,269 of. 558 00:15:54,319 --> 00:15:54,889 The. 559 00:15:55,699 --> 00:15:56,689 Giving a kid. 560 00:15:56,773 --> 00:15:58,153 Change versus dollars. 561 00:15:58,333 --> 00:15:58,783 Oh yeah. 562 00:15:58,813 --> 00:15:59,533 Good point. 563 00:16:00,943 --> 00:16:01,133 Yeah. 564 00:16:01,133 --> 00:16:01,904 They want more. 565 00:16:02,204 --> 00:16:03,464 the coins, the number. 566 00:16:03,464 --> 00:16:05,414 of coins not the value 567 00:16:05,444 --> 00:16:06,194 of the coins. 568 00:16:06,464 --> 00:16:06,914 Yeah. 569 00:16:07,304 --> 00:16:07,874 That's good. 570 00:16:08,054 --> 00:16:08,684 Very good. 571 00:16:08,894 --> 00:16:10,771 So there's two stages of level one. 572 00:16:11,101 --> 00:16:13,201 The first is obedience and punishment. 573 00:16:13,291 --> 00:16:16,111 The rules are fixed and handed down by the authority. 574 00:16:16,501 --> 00:16:18,061 And the child or the individual. 575 00:16:18,541 --> 00:16:21,211 Is good in order to avoid being punished. 576 00:16:21,271 --> 00:16:22,621 And if a person is punished. 577 00:16:22,651 --> 00:16:23,851 They must have done wrong. 578 00:16:23,881 --> 00:16:24,781 whether they did wrong? 579 00:16:24,781 --> 00:16:25,201 or not. 580 00:16:25,201 --> 00:16:25,891 If a person is 581 00:16:25,891 --> 00:16:27,541 punished to a child at this level. 582 00:16:27,691 --> 00:16:28,981 they must have done wrong. 583 00:16:30,121 --> 00:16:32,761 After a while they'll move to stage two and that's going 584 00:16:32,761 --> 00:16:33,961 to call the individualism. 585 00:16:33,991 --> 00:16:34,771 and exchange. 586 00:16:34,831 --> 00:16:36,301 And at this stage, children. 587 00:16:36,301 --> 00:16:37,501 recognize there's not 588 00:16:37,501 --> 00:16:38,911 just one, right. 589 00:16:38,911 --> 00:16:39,211 view. 590 00:16:39,211 --> 00:16:40,951 That's handed down by the authorities. 591 00:16:41,401 --> 00:16:41,641 And the 592 00:16:41,641 --> 00:16:42,391 action is right. 593 00:16:42,421 --> 00:16:43,981 If it serves the individual. 594 00:16:44,341 --> 00:16:44,671 Now that's 595 00:16:44,671 --> 00:16:45,241 interesting. 596 00:16:45,421 --> 00:16:46,651 because children at this stage. 597 00:16:46,711 --> 00:16:49,471 believe that if it gets me, what I want it's right. 598 00:16:49,621 --> 00:16:50,821 No matter what they do. 599 00:16:51,301 --> 00:16:53,041 You guys never had experiences like that out. 600 00:16:54,301 --> 00:16:55,291 I don't know what you're talking about. 601 00:16:56,731 --> 00:16:57,301 Yay. 602 00:16:57,871 --> 00:16:58,801 Here's the thing. 603 00:16:58,801 --> 00:17:02,521 And this is what I appreciate a lot about you, Chris. 604 00:17:02,573 --> 00:17:06,008 Not everyone knows your background, but you profile. 605 00:17:06,039 --> 00:17:07,779 That's what you did with the FBI. 606 00:17:07,779 --> 00:17:08,109 at some 607 00:17:08,379 --> 00:17:08,919 Four years. 608 00:17:08,919 --> 00:17:09,159 Yeah. 609 00:17:09,189 --> 00:17:09,459 Yeah. 610 00:17:09,579 --> 00:17:11,326 And trying to figure people out. 611 00:17:11,326 --> 00:17:12,944 is can anyone do that up to. 612 00:17:13,574 --> 00:17:14,054 Oh, yeah. 613 00:17:14,084 --> 00:17:14,684 Yeah. 614 00:17:14,984 --> 00:17:15,194 It's 615 00:17:15,344 --> 00:17:16,034 just a skill. 616 00:17:16,034 --> 00:17:16,754 You can learn it like. 617 00:17:16,784 --> 00:17:18,254 you learn how to fix a car. 618 00:17:18,464 --> 00:17:18,854 right? 619 00:17:19,184 --> 00:17:20,924 Because people's morals are. 620 00:17:21,824 --> 00:17:23,144 They're all different, right though. 621 00:17:23,144 --> 00:17:24,044 They're all different. 622 00:17:24,314 --> 00:17:24,494 They're 623 00:17:24,614 --> 00:17:27,644 You can figure them out who they are and you can figure out the ones 624 00:17:27,644 --> 00:17:29,504 that have no morals pretty quickly. 625 00:17:29,654 --> 00:17:30,914 And they will tell you. 626 00:17:31,184 --> 00:17:32,684 much more about themselves. 627 00:17:32,864 --> 00:17:34,034 Here's a great example. 628 00:17:34,034 --> 00:17:35,624 I was in Spain. 629 00:17:35,864 --> 00:17:39,284 and in Barcelona, and there was a sign up in the middle of a place called 630 00:17:39,434 --> 00:17:40,844 Ramble as that said, beware of. 631 00:17:40,844 --> 00:17:41,684 Pickpockets. 632 00:17:41,811 --> 00:17:45,051 The locals will tell you the police did not put that sign up. 633 00:17:45,081 --> 00:17:47,031 the pig pockets, put that sign up. 634 00:17:47,451 --> 00:17:49,641 Now why would a pickpocket put that sign up? 635 00:17:49,971 --> 00:17:50,541 As soon as you 636 00:17:50,541 --> 00:17:51,861 hear beware of pickpockets, 637 00:17:51,861 --> 00:17:52,731 what's the first thing you do? 638 00:17:52,731 --> 00:17:56,511 You check your wallet, you tap your but If your wallet's there or your pocket. 639 00:17:56,511 --> 00:17:58,821 to see in, you're just showing them my wallet right here. 640 00:17:59,181 --> 00:18:00,351 Oh, wow. 641 00:18:00,471 --> 00:18:01,311 man. 642 00:18:02,091 --> 00:18:03,051 That's good. 643 00:18:03,066 --> 00:18:03,870 That's not good. 644 00:18:03,870 --> 00:18:04,740 but that's good. 645 00:18:04,740 --> 00:18:05,130 That's. 646 00:18:05,700 --> 00:18:06,960 Wow. 647 00:18:07,290 --> 00:18:08,370 They will tell you everything. 648 00:18:08,370 --> 00:18:09,090 If you watch. 649 00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:10,560 I'm telling you guys, Chris. 650 00:18:10,590 --> 00:18:12,990 he's got a lot of good information. 651 00:18:13,230 --> 00:18:13,320 you. 652 00:18:13,470 --> 00:18:13,860 That's good. 653 00:18:13,860 --> 00:18:14,430 That's good. 654 00:18:14,430 --> 00:18:15,450 That's a good insight. 655 00:18:15,450 --> 00:18:15,870 I think. 656 00:18:16,530 --> 00:18:17,640 To the way we are. 657 00:18:17,670 --> 00:18:18,030 Yeah. 658 00:18:18,750 --> 00:18:19,950 Let's move on to level two. 659 00:18:19,980 --> 00:18:20,910 This is level two. 660 00:18:20,910 --> 00:18:23,040 is where the majority of people are. 661 00:18:23,550 --> 00:18:25,770 Level two is called conventional morality. 662 00:18:26,190 --> 00:18:28,200 It's the second stage of moral development. 663 00:18:28,290 --> 00:18:30,390 And it's the most basic level. 664 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:32,340 We begin to at the most basic level. 665 00:18:32,340 --> 00:18:35,010 we begin to internalize the moral standards of a 666 00:18:35,010 --> 00:18:37,020 respected adult role models. 667 00:18:37,470 --> 00:18:41,430 Internal authority is not questioned and reasoning is based on the group 668 00:18:41,460 --> 00:18:43,470 norms to which the individual belongs. 669 00:18:44,940 --> 00:18:46,440 There are two. 670 00:18:46,518 --> 00:18:48,948 Group two stages in this one as well, the first one's called 671 00:18:48,978 --> 00:18:50,658 interpersonal according conformity. 672 00:18:50,958 --> 00:18:52,368 This is where the individual. 673 00:18:52,818 --> 00:18:54,318 Is good to be seen. 674 00:18:54,498 --> 00:18:57,468 It's good to be seen as good by other people. 675 00:18:57,708 --> 00:19:00,738 In other words, it values what other people think of you. 676 00:19:01,098 --> 00:19:01,248 Yeah. 677 00:19:01,878 --> 00:19:03,978 relate to the approval of others. 678 00:19:04,098 --> 00:19:06,828 And this is the fourth stage that kids will go through. 679 00:19:07,278 --> 00:19:07,968 The neck, I'm sorry. 680 00:19:07,968 --> 00:19:08,568 the third stage, 681 00:19:08,598 --> 00:19:09,828 the Next is the four stage 682 00:19:09,858 --> 00:19:11,658 and that's maintaining social order. 683 00:19:12,018 --> 00:19:15,528 This is where the individual becomes aware of the wider rules of society. 684 00:19:15,798 --> 00:19:19,098 and judgment concerning obeying the rules in order to uphold the law. 685 00:19:19,188 --> 00:19:20,388 and avoid guilt. 686 00:19:20,988 --> 00:19:23,058 And remember, you have to travel through these in order. 687 00:19:23,058 --> 00:19:24,288 So we're on stage four. 688 00:19:24,318 --> 00:19:25,468 You've gone through. 689 00:19:25,496 --> 00:19:28,406 The first stage where the rules are the rules and you're right or wrong. 690 00:19:28,406 --> 00:19:32,846 If you break them or uphold them, the second stage was everything that gets me. 691 00:19:32,846 --> 00:19:34,316 What I want is okay. 692 00:19:34,736 --> 00:19:36,056 The third stage is 693 00:19:36,116 --> 00:19:36,866 you want to be 694 00:19:36,866 --> 00:19:38,186 seen as good. 695 00:19:38,516 --> 00:19:43,616 And the forest stage is you don't want to feel guilty over anything. 696 00:19:44,156 --> 00:19:45,536 This is where most people are. 697 00:19:45,836 --> 00:19:49,278 I think I, I think we've all experienced every one of them at some point. 698 00:19:49,698 --> 00:19:51,491 And, You brought a good point earlier. 699 00:19:51,491 --> 00:19:53,108 We see it in our kids for sure. 700 00:19:53,174 --> 00:19:54,344 There's a lot to that. 701 00:19:54,434 --> 00:19:55,904 There's a lot to unpack. 702 00:19:55,904 --> 00:19:56,924 I think don't you. 703 00:19:58,064 --> 00:19:58,934 agree completely. 704 00:19:58,964 --> 00:20:01,844 So that's hard though, to understand. 705 00:20:01,866 --> 00:20:04,296 Why we are the way we are? 706 00:20:04,416 --> 00:20:04,836 Yes. 707 00:20:05,336 --> 00:20:06,806 But we're going to let Wayne write a book on 708 00:20:06,806 --> 00:20:06,896 that. 709 00:20:06,986 --> 00:20:07,256 How's that 710 00:20:07,406 --> 00:20:08,096 I'm sure he will. 711 00:20:08,426 --> 00:20:09,176 I think about this. 712 00:20:09,176 --> 00:20:10,886 We've got two more to go, but think about this. 713 00:20:10,886 --> 00:20:11,996 What about someone? 714 00:20:12,326 --> 00:20:14,186 That may be on level four. 715 00:20:14,576 --> 00:20:14,936 And 716 00:20:14,936 --> 00:20:17,216 they're worried about feeling guilty and they're trying to 717 00:20:17,216 --> 00:20:19,766 discuss morals with somebody let's say on level 718 00:20:19,766 --> 00:20:20,306 two. 719 00:20:20,696 --> 00:20:21,716 And it doesn't matter 720 00:20:21,716 --> 00:20:23,066 as long as you get what you want. 721 00:20:23,096 --> 00:20:24,116 That's not going to be. 722 00:20:24,146 --> 00:20:24,446 they're 723 00:20:24,446 --> 00:20:26,066 never going to see eye to eye Are they? 724 00:20:26,066 --> 00:20:26,666 that's not going to 725 00:20:26,666 --> 00:20:27,776 be an even debate. 726 00:20:28,256 --> 00:20:28,436 No. 727 00:20:28,736 --> 00:20:29,126 no. 728 00:20:29,636 --> 00:20:30,596 A hundred percent now. 729 00:20:30,836 --> 00:20:34,616 I'm sure as parents, you have been on one moral level trying to explain to 730 00:20:34,616 --> 00:20:37,166 your children on a different moral level, and you're just 731 00:20:37,166 --> 00:20:38,246 not getting through to them. 732 00:20:38,248 --> 00:20:39,268 They can't comprehend. 733 00:20:39,268 --> 00:20:39,598 that. 734 00:20:39,628 --> 00:20:40,667 Can I talk about now? 735 00:20:41,437 --> 00:20:42,187 there we go. 736 00:20:42,247 --> 00:20:42,847 Oh, 737 00:20:43,327 --> 00:20:44,287 goodness. 738 00:20:44,437 --> 00:20:44,737 Let's go. 739 00:20:44,737 --> 00:20:45,277 to The last 740 00:20:45,277 --> 00:20:45,697 level. 741 00:20:46,027 --> 00:20:47,917 This is pre-conventional morality. 742 00:20:47,947 --> 00:20:49,717 Most people never get to this level. 743 00:20:50,257 --> 00:20:53,137 It's the third stage of moral development and is characterized. 744 00:20:53,137 --> 00:20:56,887 by an individual's understanding of universal ethical principles. 745 00:20:57,228 --> 00:21:00,228 These are what I like to call biblical principles that you mentioned, Dave. 746 00:21:00,528 --> 00:21:03,078 They're abstract and they're ill-defined. 747 00:21:03,528 --> 00:21:07,370 But they may include the preservation of life at All costs or the 748 00:21:07,370 --> 00:21:08,930 importance of human dignity. 749 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:10,910 You can have either one of those or both. 750 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:15,680 Individual judgment is based on self chosen principles and moral reasoning is 751 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,290 based on individual rights and justice. 752 00:21:18,740 --> 00:21:19,880 Now, according to Kohlberg. 753 00:21:19,910 --> 00:21:21,320 this level of moral reasoning. 754 00:21:21,710 --> 00:21:24,020 Is more than most people get. 755 00:21:24,020 --> 00:21:29,240 And only 10 to 15% of people are capable of this type of abstract thinking. 756 00:21:30,170 --> 00:21:31,640 Stage five in this. 757 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:32,540 Is the 758 00:21:32,540 --> 00:21:37,250 individual becomes aware that while rules or laws may exist for the greatest number? 759 00:21:37,580 --> 00:21:40,970 There are times when they'll work against the rule or the law or the 760 00:21:40,970 --> 00:21:44,540 Interest of particular individuals and the issues are not clear. 761 00:21:44,540 --> 00:21:46,220 Cut like Heinz's dilemma. 762 00:21:46,220 --> 00:21:46,760 We discussed. 763 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:47,840 Those issues were not clear. 764 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:48,110 Cut. 765 00:21:48,590 --> 00:21:49,010 Gotcha. 766 00:21:50,300 --> 00:21:51,860 The last is stage six, and 767 00:21:51,860 --> 00:21:53,630 this is called universal principles. 768 00:21:53,660 --> 00:21:55,310 People at this stage have developed their 769 00:21:55,340 --> 00:21:57,080 own set of moral guidelines. 770 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,660 in which is typically the biblical ones that we follow. 771 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:01,460 And they may or may not fit the 772 00:22:01,460 --> 00:22:01,880 law. 773 00:22:01,970 --> 00:22:03,860 The principle applies to everyone. 774 00:22:03,890 --> 00:22:04,430 The person 775 00:22:04,460 --> 00:22:04,790 will be. 776 00:22:04,940 --> 00:22:06,860 In other words, let me explain that to the principal. 777 00:22:07,130 --> 00:22:07,430 If it's 778 00:22:07,430 --> 00:22:08,000 good for me, it's 779 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:08,690 good for you. 780 00:22:08,900 --> 00:22:11,300 It doesn't just apply to me It Applies to everyone. 781 00:22:11,570 --> 00:22:15,260 and the person will be prepared to act and to defend the principles, even if it 782 00:22:15,260 --> 00:22:17,450 means going against the rest of society. 783 00:22:18,020 --> 00:22:21,660 Kohlberg doubted very few people have ever reached this stage. 784 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:23,600 What do you think Wayne. 785 00:22:23,690 --> 00:22:23,990 No. 786 00:22:23,990 --> 00:22:24,920 Anyone has ever. 787 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:27,270 Grace that stage. 788 00:22:28,530 --> 00:22:28,950 No. 789 00:22:29,580 --> 00:22:30,540 Not that I can think of. 790 00:22:30,930 --> 00:22:31,560 It's a tough 791 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:32,490 it's not me. 792 00:22:32,790 --> 00:22:33,090 For sure. 793 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:33,990 All right. 794 00:22:33,990 --> 00:22:36,030 Let me inject a little bit of drama in this. 795 00:22:37,020 --> 00:22:38,070 What flaws. 796 00:22:38,700 --> 00:22:39,240 Here we go. 797 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,880 What flaws can you see with this study? 798 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:44,440 They, what flaws Do you see with this? 799 00:22:44,470 --> 00:22:44,620 day? 800 00:22:45,620 --> 00:22:46,460 As a whole. 801 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,600 Yeah, I think there's a lot of predicting going on. 802 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:51,740 I think there's a lot of 803 00:22:51,770 --> 00:22:52,473 I don't know. 804 00:22:52,473 --> 00:22:54,903 Just people or you just never know. 805 00:22:55,653 --> 00:22:57,273 What you're going to get with people. 806 00:22:57,483 --> 00:22:59,283 The goal has to be. 807 00:23:00,303 --> 00:23:00,453 The 808 00:23:00,483 --> 00:23:02,703 the ultimate for me morally. 809 00:23:03,063 --> 00:23:05,073 It is Again, the word of God. 810 00:23:05,073 --> 00:23:05,433 And if I. 811 00:23:06,453 --> 00:23:07,753 And if I do that, then. 812 00:23:07,770 --> 00:23:09,030 I'm on the right track. 813 00:23:09,060 --> 00:23:12,810 What do you think, Wayne And I'll come back on that to go ahead. 814 00:23:13,050 --> 00:23:14,910 The whole of the theory. 815 00:23:15,330 --> 00:23:16,170 Same space. 816 00:23:16,500 --> 00:23:18,150 On presupposition. 817 00:23:18,660 --> 00:23:18,900 True. 818 00:23:19,140 --> 00:23:19,890 One way or the other. 819 00:23:20,700 --> 00:23:22,641 You're out there moral or you're not moral. 820 00:23:22,691 --> 00:23:24,461 So it's one of those. 821 00:23:24,701 --> 00:23:27,371 The theory will never be settled because there are no. 822 00:23:27,821 --> 00:23:29,111 There's not just one. 823 00:23:29,321 --> 00:23:30,281 type of person. 824 00:23:30,491 --> 00:23:31,031 Very good. 825 00:23:31,331 --> 00:23:32,141 Very interesting. 826 00:23:32,861 --> 00:23:34,571 Yeah, I think. 827 00:23:34,583 --> 00:23:35,718 It's really good. 828 00:23:35,748 --> 00:23:36,558 It's really 829 00:23:36,590 --> 00:23:38,012 It's hard to obtain. 830 00:23:38,882 --> 00:23:38,972 A 831 00:23:39,212 --> 00:23:40,262 of what they're talking about. 832 00:23:40,262 --> 00:23:41,432 trying to understand it. 833 00:23:41,432 --> 00:23:42,285 Does that make sense? 834 00:23:42,285 --> 00:23:43,177 It completely does. 835 00:23:44,467 --> 00:23:45,277 What do you think? 836 00:23:45,577 --> 00:23:47,227 Here's a couple, I saw 837 00:23:47,467 --> 00:23:49,747 number one, life experience. 838 00:23:49,807 --> 00:23:51,907 He got this from kids 10 to 16. 839 00:23:51,907 --> 00:23:52,357 What do they 840 00:23:52,357 --> 00:23:53,707 know about saving a wife? 841 00:23:53,737 --> 00:23:54,127 They don't 842 00:23:54,127 --> 00:23:55,627 have that emotional attachment. 843 00:23:55,657 --> 00:23:56,977 They've never lived there. 844 00:23:57,007 --> 00:23:58,597 I did think that actually. 845 00:23:59,047 --> 00:23:59,827 That's good. 846 00:24:01,147 --> 00:24:03,667 But I was thinking they were much more mature than I thought. 847 00:24:04,867 --> 00:24:06,757 Very mature 10 to 16 year olds. 848 00:24:06,817 --> 00:24:08,587 I was like, they haven't been to my house. 849 00:24:08,677 --> 00:24:09,397 The second thing 850 00:24:09,397 --> 00:24:09,457 I 851 00:24:09,457 --> 00:24:11,167 noticed is it doesn't match 852 00:24:11,197 --> 00:24:13,207 the internal versus the external debate. 853 00:24:13,237 --> 00:24:15,277 We normally go through most people. 854 00:24:15,307 --> 00:24:16,237 And whether you 855 00:24:16,237 --> 00:24:16,987 like it or not. 856 00:24:17,017 --> 00:24:18,097 this applies to us. 857 00:24:18,487 --> 00:24:20,257 have an internal set of moral code. 858 00:24:20,287 --> 00:24:22,897 That's different than the ones we apply to everyone else. 859 00:24:23,017 --> 00:24:25,013 And it doesn't seem to account for that at all. 860 00:24:25,013 --> 00:24:25,506 And green. 861 00:24:26,256 --> 00:24:28,086 I've got one thing I want to wrap it up with. 862 00:24:28,356 --> 00:24:31,386 What does the Bible say about different moral developments? 863 00:24:31,416 --> 00:24:34,626 And this is a beautiful verse is one of my favorites, Romans 14. 864 00:24:34,626 --> 00:24:35,736 two through four. 865 00:24:36,306 --> 00:24:36,576 One 866 00:24:36,576 --> 00:24:37,986 person believes he may eat 867 00:24:37,986 --> 00:24:38,646 anything 868 00:24:38,826 --> 00:24:40,596 while the weak person eats only 869 00:24:40,596 --> 00:24:41,346 vegetables. 870 00:24:41,736 --> 00:24:42,576 Let not the one 871 00:24:42,576 --> 00:24:44,856 who eats, despise the one who abstains. 872 00:24:44,886 --> 00:24:47,136 And let not the one who abstains pass judgment 873 00:24:47,136 --> 00:24:49,686 on the one who eats for God has welcomed him. 874 00:24:50,196 --> 00:24:52,896 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another. 875 00:24:53,376 --> 00:24:57,366 It is before his own master that he stands or falls and he will be upheld 876 00:24:57,366 --> 00:24:59,586 for the Lord is able to make him stand. 877 00:25:00,126 --> 00:25:00,606 Hey man. 878 00:25:01,026 --> 00:25:01,926 That's good. 879 00:25:01,956 --> 00:25:02,346 fit. 880 00:25:02,646 --> 00:25:03,726 It fits perfect. 881 00:25:03,726 --> 00:25:03,876 It's 882 00:25:03,876 --> 00:25:05,796 a lot with what's going on in the world today, too. 883 00:25:05,856 --> 00:25:06,456 Yeah. 884 00:25:06,606 --> 00:25:07,056 Yeah. 885 00:25:07,056 --> 00:25:07,546 I think 886 00:25:07,546 --> 00:25:10,349 Ultimately, it comes down to this. 887 00:25:10,739 --> 00:25:12,119 Do we obey guide? 888 00:25:12,239 --> 00:25:13,199 And if we do. 889 00:25:14,579 --> 00:25:14,939 And what 890 00:25:14,969 --> 00:25:16,949 do you think in closing Wayne? 891 00:25:16,949 --> 00:25:17,699 You got anything? 892 00:25:17,939 --> 00:25:20,072 Yeah, If you don't have a foundation. 893 00:25:20,852 --> 00:25:21,812 You're not going to have. 894 00:25:23,132 --> 00:25:24,122 Anything to build on. 895 00:25:24,632 --> 00:25:25,152 That's true. 896 00:25:25,177 --> 00:25:25,657 Jesus. 897 00:25:25,657 --> 00:25:26,617 is the cornerstone. 898 00:25:27,097 --> 00:25:28,807 He's Either your stumbling block. 899 00:25:29,257 --> 00:25:30,547 Oh, you brought it now. 900 00:25:31,327 --> 00:25:32,107 Here we go. 901 00:25:32,137 --> 00:25:33,037 Come on now. 902 00:25:33,604 --> 00:25:33,934 that. 903 00:25:35,404 --> 00:25:40,024 I think ultimately it comes down to where you are as far as your life. 904 00:25:40,024 --> 00:25:40,264 goes. 905 00:25:40,294 --> 00:25:41,854 Matthew 6 24 says this. 906 00:25:42,184 --> 00:25:45,244 No one can serve two masters for either he will hate one 907 00:25:45,574 --> 00:25:47,404 or love the other, or he will. 908 00:25:48,214 --> 00:25:51,514 be devoted to one and despise the other. 909 00:25:51,514 --> 00:25:51,934 Amen. 910 00:25:53,224 --> 00:25:54,664 You can't serve God and money. 911 00:25:55,001 --> 00:25:56,231 And that's pretty much it. 912 00:25:56,231 --> 00:25:57,281 You got to make a choice. 913 00:25:57,311 --> 00:25:58,601 I'm going to serve God. 914 00:25:58,841 --> 00:25:59,681 with everything. 915 00:25:59,711 --> 00:26:00,281 I have. 916 00:26:01,181 --> 00:26:01,781 Amen. 917 00:26:02,051 --> 00:26:02,111 It 918 00:26:02,111 --> 00:26:04,511 says this, but Peter and the apostles answered. 919 00:26:04,811 --> 00:26:07,061 We must obey God rather than men. 920 00:26:08,231 --> 00:26:08,321 I 921 00:26:08,321 --> 00:26:09,221 think that's it. 922 00:26:09,221 --> 00:26:10,991 And I think that's what we'll close on. 923 00:26:10,991 --> 00:26:11,531 You guys? 924 00:26:11,681 --> 00:26:12,611 Anything else? 925 00:26:13,331 --> 00:26:16,211 People listening stop by lead1212.com And let us know what 926 00:26:16,211 --> 00:26:16,601 you think. 927 00:26:16,601 --> 00:26:20,201 I would love to hear your answers to these questions about Heinz and his wife. 928 00:26:20,681 --> 00:26:21,011 Yeah. 929 00:26:21,671 --> 00:26:22,829 That would be really good. 930 00:26:22,879 --> 00:26:24,259 Everybody have a great week. 931 00:26:24,259 --> 00:26:25,009 God bless. 932 00:26:25,069 --> 00:26:25,609 Thanks for listening.

Would you break the law if you thought it would save the life of your spouse? Would you break the law if you thought it would save the life of a stranger?

What does the Bible say about dealing with people at different stages of moral development?

Episode 22 – Leadership Ethics

Since I am the leader, I can do anything I want, right?  Have you had a leader like that or knew anyone that thought like that?

Php 2:3–5 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.  Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.  Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,

Verses:

Ga 5:16–26 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.  For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things…

1 Pe 1:15–16 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

Ethics  Definition and Theory

  • Is a derivative of the Greek word ethos, meaning customs, conduct, or character
  • Is concerned with the kinds of values and morals an individual or society ascribes as  desirable or appropriate
  • Focuses on the virtuousness of individuals and their motives

Kohlberg’s Stages of Moral Development

In 1958 Lawrence Kohlberg had the idea that moral reasoning was linked to cognitive development.  Kohlberg studied this by posing questions about morality to children aged 10 – 16 years and what he found was there were three levels of moral development and each level was split into two stages.  Kohlberg also noted that people progressed through these in a fixed order.

One of the best known of Kohlberg’s (1958) stories concerns a man called Heinz who lived somewhere in Europe.

Heinz’s wife was dying from a particular type of cancer.  Doctors said a new drug might save her.  The drug had been discovered by a local chemist, and Heinz tried desperately to buy some, but the chemist was charging ten times the money it cost to make the drug, and this was much more than the Heinz could afford.

Heinz could only raise half the money, even after help from family and friends.  He explained to the chemist that his wife was dying and asked if he could have the drug cheaper or pay the rest of the money later.

The chemist refused, saying that he had discovered the drug and was going to make money from it.  The husband was desperate to save his wife, so later that night he broke into the chemist’s and stole the drug.

Kohlberg asked a series of questions such as:

  1. Should Heinz have stolen the drug?
  2. Would it change anything if Heinz did not love his wife?
  3. What if the person dying was a stranger? Would it make any difference?
  4. Should the police arrest the chemist for murder if the woman died?

Stages of Moral Development

  • Level 1.  Pre-conventional morality – Preconventional morality is the initial stage of moral development, lasting approximately until the age of nine.  Children do not have a personal moral code at the preconventional level; instead, moral decisions are shaped by adult standards and the consequences of following or breaking their rules.  For example, if an action leads to punishment is must be bad, and if it leads to a reward is must be good.  Authority is outside the individual and children often make moral decisions based on the physical consequences of actions.
    • Stage 1–Obedience and Punishment: Rules are fixed and handed down by authority.  The child/individual is good in order to avoid being punished.  If a person is punished, they must have done wrong.
    • Stage 2–Individualism and Exchange: At this stage, children recognize that there is not just one right view that is handed down by the authorities.  An action is right if it serves the individual
  • Level 2.  Conventional morality.  Conventional morality is the second stage of moral development.  At the most basic level (for the majority of adolescents and adults), we begin to internalize the moral standards of respected adult role models.  Internalized authority is not questioned, and reasoning is based on the group norms to which the individual belongs.  A social system that emphasizes both relationship responsibilities and social order is deemed desirable, and thus must influence our perceptions of what is right and wrong.
    • Stage 3–Interpersonal Accord and Conformity: The child/individual is good to be seen as being a good person by others.  Therefore, answers relate to the approval of others.
    • Stage 4–Maintaining the Social Order: The child/individual becomes aware of the wider rules of society, so judgments concern obeying the rules in order to uphold the law and to avoid guilt.
  • Level 3.  Post-conventional Morality – Postconventional morality is the third stage of moral development, and is characterized by an individuals’ understanding of universal ethical principles.  These are abstract and ill-defined but might include: the preservation of life at all costs and the importance of human dignity.  Individual judgment is based on self-chosen principles, and moral reasoning is based on individual rights and justice.  According to Kohlberg, this level of moral reasoning is as far as most people get.  Only 10-15% are capable of the kind of abstract thinking necessary for stage 5 or 6 (post-conventional morality).  Most people take their moral views from those around them, and only a minority think through ethical principles for themselves.
    • Stage 5–Social Contract and Individual Rights: The child/individual becomes aware that while rules/laws might exist for the good of the greatest number, there are times when they will work against the interest of particular individuals.  The issues are not always clear-cut.  For example, in Heinz’s dilemma, the protection of life is more important than breaking the law against stealing.
    • Stage 6–Universal Principles: People at this stage have developed their own set of moral guidelines which may or may not fit the law.  The principles apply to everyone.  E.g., human rights, justice, and equality.  The person will be prepared to act to defend these principles even if it means going against the rest of society in the process and having to pay the consequences of disapproval and or imprisonment.  Kohlberg doubted few people reached this stage.

Can we see any flaws in this study? Age, life experience, doesn’t match internal vs external.

What does the Bible say about different moral development:  Ro 14:2-4 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables.  3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.  4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another?  It is before his own master that he stands or falls.  And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

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