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1 00:00:34,444 --> 00:00:35,584 Hey everybody.2 00:00:35,674 --> 00:00:37,984 It's good to see ya hope you're having a good day.3 00:00:38,044 --> 00:00:39,064 I always say that.4 00:00:39,064 --> 00:00:39,334 I know.5 00:00:39,334 --> 00:00:40,054 I don't see you.6 00:00:40,144 --> 00:00:42,364 You don't have to tell us that I'm not singing you.7 00:00:42,514 --> 00:00:43,204 I get it.8 00:00:43,414 --> 00:00:46,174 But we're excited about what God's doing through.9 00:00:46,394 --> 00:00:47,323 Lead 12:12.10 00:00:47,343 --> 00:00:48,723 lots of things are going on.11 00:00:48,933 --> 00:00:52,503 Here's the quote that I want to start off with the best way to preach men12 00:00:52,503 --> 00:00:54,483 to Christ is to preach Christ to men.13 00:00:54,753 --> 00:00:55,473 Amen.14 00:00:55,743 --> 00:00:56,463 That's good.15 00:00:56,545 --> 00:00:59,875 As we think about that, what are we talking about today, Chris?16 00:00:59,965 --> 00:01:01,825 We're going over Ethical leadership.17 00:01:01,825 --> 00:01:03,865 And this is going to be a two-part series.18 00:01:03,865 --> 00:01:05,035 So today's part one.19 00:01:05,605 --> 00:01:07,735 And I think one of the most important things.20 00:01:08,065 --> 00:01:12,364 With any kind of ethical things is to be reminded that Christ21 00:01:12,394 --> 00:01:13,684 needs to be the center point.22 00:01:13,804 --> 00:01:14,764 Amen to that.23 00:01:14,794 --> 00:01:14,854 You24 00:01:14,884 --> 00:01:15,664 do that.25 00:01:16,114 --> 00:01:16,984 All morals.26 00:01:16,984 --> 00:01:18,724 We'll follow live like Jesus.27 00:01:18,803 --> 00:01:20,273 That's a pretty good morality.28 00:01:20,543 --> 00:01:21,053 Jesus.29 00:01:21,113 --> 00:01:21,623 That's it.30 00:01:21,683 --> 00:01:22,103 That's the31 00:01:22,703 --> 00:01:24,203 and that's a pretty high standard.32 00:01:24,203 --> 00:01:24,533 Isn't it?33 00:01:24,533 --> 00:01:24,863 Wayne.34 00:01:25,403 --> 00:01:26,813 It is incredibly high.35 00:01:26,993 --> 00:01:27,323 Yeah.36 00:01:27,413 --> 00:01:28,133 it's tough.37 00:01:28,208 --> 00:01:30,758 The way he loved people, the way he treated people.38 00:01:30,758 --> 00:01:31,928 And I don't know about you guys.39 00:01:31,958 --> 00:01:34,298 I sometimes think people can get ugly.40 00:01:34,358 --> 00:01:35,138 Oh my gosh.41 00:01:36,138 --> 00:01:36,618 Wayne.42 00:01:36,708 --> 00:01:37,368 To start that way.43 00:01:37,518 --> 00:01:38,448 Oh,44 00:01:38,478 --> 00:01:38,898 boom.45 00:01:38,928 --> 00:01:39,588 there it is.46 00:01:39,858 --> 00:01:40,278 Drop.47 00:01:40,278 --> 00:01:40,398 it.48 00:01:40,398 --> 00:01:41,298 Like it's hot.49 00:01:42,318 --> 00:01:42,948 No.50 00:01:42,978 --> 00:01:44,688 We haven't even gotten into it yet.51 00:01:45,018 --> 00:01:46,908 Wayne's already got a rim shot.52 00:01:46,908 --> 00:01:47,928 way to go, buddy.53 00:01:48,948 --> 00:01:49,158 It's54 00:01:49,158 --> 00:01:52,108 exciting times here at lead 12:12.55 00:01:52,128 --> 00:01:52,728 In the lead.56 00:01:52,908 --> 00:01:54,468 All right, Chris you're on.57 00:01:54,558 --> 00:01:55,308 Let's do it.58 00:01:55,458 --> 00:01:55,668 Let me59 00:01:55,668 --> 00:01:56,778 ask you guys a question.60 00:01:56,778 --> 00:01:57,708 You're both leaders.61 00:01:57,708 --> 00:01:58,578 at what you do.62 00:01:58,998 --> 00:02:01,578 Is this statement true since I'm the leader.63 00:02:01,788 --> 00:02:01,938 I64 00:02:01,938 --> 00:02:03,768 can do anything I want.65 00:02:04,188 --> 00:02:05,208 Is that true or false?66 00:02:05,958 --> 00:02:06,168 That67 00:02:06,168 --> 00:02:07,218 is false.68 00:02:07,608 --> 00:02:07,938 Wayne.69 00:02:08,938 --> 00:02:09,028 I70 00:02:09,028 --> 00:02:09,748 think it's true.71 00:02:10,138 --> 00:02:11,398 Oh, we got to split.72 00:02:12,718 --> 00:02:13,048 lot73 00:02:13,078 --> 00:02:14,038 of people believe that74 00:02:14,038 --> 00:02:16,108 the leader can do anything they want to do.75 00:02:16,258 --> 00:02:18,238 and that can lead you to a bad road.76 00:02:18,238 --> 00:02:19,138 We'll go down that.77 00:02:19,138 --> 00:02:20,098 So I was right.78 00:02:21,118 --> 00:02:21,778 You got it.79 00:02:21,868 --> 00:02:22,438 Yes.80 00:02:22,948 --> 00:02:24,028 Loser.81 00:02:24,028 --> 00:02:24,268 No.82 00:02:24,298 --> 00:02:24,658 Sorry.83 00:02:25,138 --> 00:02:25,318 I'm84 00:02:25,348 --> 00:02:27,538 I'm really saying that from.85 00:02:28,049 --> 00:02:29,339 Anybody can do anything.86 00:02:29,339 --> 00:02:30,989 they want, but there are consequences.87 00:02:31,019 --> 00:02:32,249 There are consequences.88 00:02:32,249 --> 00:02:32,609 Now89 00:02:32,789 --> 00:02:33,629 going to deep90 00:02:33,689 --> 00:02:34,079 in it.91 00:02:34,139 --> 00:02:35,849 It's just a true, false question.92 00:02:35,849 --> 00:02:36,599 My brother.93 00:02:36,839 --> 00:02:38,159 Have either of you guys know.94 00:02:38,279 --> 00:02:40,109 The leader who thought that was true?95 00:02:40,949 --> 00:02:42,329 Absolutely a hundred percent.96 00:02:42,359 --> 00:02:42,989 for sure.97 00:02:43,989 --> 00:02:45,009 And it's not good.98 00:02:45,279 --> 00:02:46,599 It's not good at all.99 00:02:46,809 --> 00:02:51,249 ' cause it's a lorded over you type situation and that's unhealthy.100 00:02:51,429 --> 00:02:51,909 And.101 00:02:51,909 --> 00:02:53,679 is unhealthy, very unhealthy.102 00:02:53,949 --> 00:02:58,779 And no matter what kind of leadership you do, you have to be accountable to someone.103 00:02:59,049 --> 00:03:01,479 Because if you're not you'll end up blowing in at the104 00:03:01,509 --> 00:03:01,689 end.105 00:03:01,756 --> 00:03:02,280 That's true.106 00:03:02,370 --> 00:03:05,820 If you're only accountable to yourself, yourself can let you down.107 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:06,900 Let me ask you.108 00:03:06,900 --> 00:03:07,860 guys Another question.109 00:03:07,860 --> 00:03:08,400 How would each110 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:09,630 of you define.111 00:03:09,930 --> 00:03:10,530 ethics?112 00:03:11,790 --> 00:03:12,660 Oh, that's a good one.113 00:03:12,660 --> 00:03:13,890 Wayne, how would you do that?114 00:03:15,210 --> 00:03:16,260 So you got, I did there.115 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:17,400 Got you on the spot, huh?116 00:03:18,453 --> 00:03:19,503 I don't think that.117 00:03:20,070 --> 00:03:20,910 Ethics is118 00:03:20,910 --> 00:03:21,990 Necessarily.119 00:03:22,170 --> 00:03:22,710 earlier.120 00:03:23,100 --> 00:03:23,640 Christian.121 00:03:23,700 --> 00:03:24,270 Concept.122 00:03:25,109 --> 00:03:26,099 In either case.123 00:03:26,159 --> 00:03:27,119 It's just really.124 00:03:28,379 --> 00:03:28,755 Kind of.125 00:03:29,255 --> 00:03:30,725 does this action.126 00:03:31,415 --> 00:03:32,255 Blake something.127 00:03:33,095 --> 00:03:34,655 that is going to positively impact.128 00:03:35,645 --> 00:03:36,035 On the.129 00:03:36,635 --> 00:03:38,225 mud it's carried out.130 00:03:38,735 --> 00:03:39,815 in an up and up way.131 00:03:41,015 --> 00:03:41,525 I get you.132 00:03:41,675 --> 00:03:42,125 Okay.133 00:03:42,425 --> 00:03:43,025 I get your day.134 00:03:43,025 --> 00:03:43,625 What do you say?135 00:03:43,655 --> 00:03:45,185 I've always thought it's you.136 00:03:45,185 --> 00:03:47,825 when you know, you take the moral high ground.137 00:03:47,975 --> 00:03:50,855 And your morals dictate.138 00:03:52,325 --> 00:03:53,975 The way you live and the way you act.139 00:03:54,005 --> 00:03:56,285 And that's always what I thought ethics is.140 00:03:56,643 --> 00:04:01,803 For me though, as a Christian, my ethics are again, only141 00:04:01,803 --> 00:04:03,393 derived from who Christ is.142 00:04:03,393 --> 00:04:07,288 And so when I put it that way, my ethics I've got a standard.143 00:04:07,528 --> 00:04:07,648 If144 00:04:07,708 --> 00:04:08,068 goodness.145 00:04:08,098 --> 00:04:08,368 Yes.146 00:04:08,368 --> 00:04:09,298 every ethics.147 00:04:09,628 --> 00:04:13,684 Has to have a standard, and I No matter who you are, there has to be a standard148 00:04:13,684 --> 00:04:15,664 for what you are building up to.149 00:04:16,234 --> 00:04:17,014 Does that make sense?150 00:04:17,014 --> 00:04:17,704 Or am I way off.151 00:04:17,914 --> 00:04:18,814 It's absolute sense.152 00:04:18,814 --> 00:04:19,834 And you're Exactly right.153 00:04:19,834 --> 00:04:25,504 Morals are what leads to ethics and that's such a great transition point.154 00:04:25,714 --> 00:04:25,834 Will.155 00:04:26,044 --> 00:04:27,304 And we'll get to that just in a minute.156 00:04:27,334 --> 00:04:32,554 With Kohlberg, but would you believe that people may have different morals157 00:04:32,554 --> 00:04:34,444 which may lead to different ethics?158 00:04:35,254 --> 00:04:37,024 It absolutely is true.159 00:04:37,024 --> 00:04:38,357 And that's, It all depends.160 00:04:38,537 --> 00:04:41,807 And in a lot of that religiously where people come from.161 00:04:41,807 --> 00:04:45,264 and, we make sure everyone knows this is a Christian podcast.162 00:04:46,464 --> 00:04:47,164 Amen,163 00:04:47,214 --> 00:04:48,294 didn't hear the amens.164 00:04:48,354 --> 00:04:48,694 And you did165 00:04:48,764 --> 00:04:53,924 But with that, I think you do have different religions have166 00:04:53,924 --> 00:04:55,364 different moral high grounds.167 00:04:55,394 --> 00:04:55,874 I think.168 00:04:55,874 --> 00:04:58,364 And what's for example, like.169 00:04:58,391 --> 00:04:59,587 There are some churches that.170 00:04:59,587 --> 00:05:02,197 think that men can have 37 wives.171 00:05:02,587 --> 00:05:04,357 That's crazy to me.172 00:05:04,627 --> 00:05:05,017 but.173 00:05:06,487 --> 00:05:08,287 I do good with the one I have.174 00:05:08,317 --> 00:05:09,388 I'm blessed.175 00:05:09,888 --> 00:05:11,898 I just know she won't listen, so that's good.176 00:05:12,898 --> 00:05:13,798 Oh, my gosh.177 00:05:13,858 --> 00:05:16,168 She might listen, somebody will tell her.178 00:05:16,888 --> 00:05:17,278 Yes.179 00:05:17,338 --> 00:05:21,560 But it's really important that doesn't dictate the way I am towards my180 00:05:21,590 --> 00:05:25,190 family, because my family is different someone else's and white the way out.181 00:05:25,460 --> 00:05:26,300 my moral.182 00:05:26,660 --> 00:05:28,100 What's the word I'm looking for, Chris.183 00:05:28,460 --> 00:05:30,380 My moral high grounds, the Bible.184 00:05:30,464 --> 00:05:34,514 Ultimately, and if the Bible says it, then I want to live it.185 00:05:34,724 --> 00:05:35,774 that's absolutely right.186 00:05:35,774 --> 00:05:37,544 You got another one, man.187 00:05:38,054 --> 00:05:38,624 That's two.188 00:05:38,834 --> 00:05:39,284 Wayne.189 00:05:39,284 --> 00:05:40,904 I'm killing you, man.190 00:05:40,934 --> 00:05:41,534 I'm losing.191 00:05:42,104 --> 00:05:42,254 It's192 00:05:42,884 --> 00:05:45,284 Ethics is derivative of the Greek word.193 00:05:45,344 --> 00:05:45,824 at those.194 00:05:45,824 --> 00:05:48,074 I think everyone knew that and that means customs.195 00:05:48,074 --> 00:05:49,664 conduct or character.196 00:05:50,174 --> 00:05:52,784 And it's concerned with the kinds of values and morals and197 00:05:52,784 --> 00:05:57,524 individual or society ascribes to be desirable or appropriate.198 00:05:57,974 --> 00:06:01,874 And it focuses on the virtuousness of individuals and their motive.199 00:06:01,874 --> 00:06:02,444 So motives.200 00:06:02,504 --> 00:06:03,884 is a huge part of ethics.201 00:06:03,884 --> 00:06:04,964 Wouldn't everyone agree to that?202 00:06:05,444 --> 00:06:06,194 Yes.203 00:06:06,974 --> 00:06:07,544 I was that.204 00:06:08,067 --> 00:06:08,877 In unison.205 00:06:09,867 --> 00:06:11,727 So now we get to something really interesting.206 00:06:12,027 --> 00:06:13,227 In 1958.207 00:06:13,257 --> 00:06:16,347 A guy named Lawrence Kohlberg had the idea that moral208 00:06:16,347 --> 00:06:18,267 reasoning was linked to cognitive209 00:06:18,267 --> 00:06:18,927 development.210 00:06:19,437 --> 00:06:21,597 In other words, your moral development.211 00:06:21,987 --> 00:06:23,877 Has to do with your intelligence.212 00:06:24,777 --> 00:06:28,017 Nicole Berg studied this by posing questions about morality213 00:06:28,107 --> 00:06:30,537 to children, ages 10 to 16.214 00:06:31,227 --> 00:06:31,347 And215 00:06:31,347 --> 00:06:32,247 what he found was there.216 00:06:32,247 --> 00:06:34,287 was Three levels of moral development217 00:06:34,377 --> 00:06:35,697 and each level has two218 00:06:35,697 --> 00:06:36,537 stages.219 00:06:36,927 --> 00:06:40,677 Kohlberg also noted that people progress through these in a fixed order.220 00:06:40,677 --> 00:06:42,777 In other words, you can't skip steps.221 00:06:43,287 --> 00:06:45,897 One of the best known of Kohlberg's stories is one222 00:06:45,897 --> 00:06:47,067 We're going to do right now.223 00:06:47,187 --> 00:06:47,367 So224 00:06:47,367 --> 00:06:50,067 you guys listened to this and I've got some questions for you and your225 00:06:50,067 --> 00:06:51,957 answers may be different on this.226 00:06:51,957 --> 00:06:53,607 So please just answer honestly.227 00:06:53,997 --> 00:06:55,497 Time with Chris Storytime.228 00:06:56,497 --> 00:06:57,397 Yeah, there you go.229 00:06:57,547 --> 00:07:00,787 This is about a man named Heinz who lived somewhere in Europe.230 00:07:00,907 --> 00:07:02,287 That's all the background you need.231 00:07:02,617 --> 00:07:02,977 So232 00:07:03,367 --> 00:07:05,437 Heinz His wife was dying.233 00:07:05,527 --> 00:07:07,567 from a particular type of cancer.234 00:07:08,227 --> 00:07:10,867 The doctor said a new drug may save her.235 00:07:11,107 --> 00:07:14,167 And the drug was discovered by a local chemist.236 00:07:14,797 --> 00:07:19,417 Heinz tried desperately to buy some, but the chemist was charging 10 times237 00:07:19,417 --> 00:07:21,187 the money it cost to make the drug.238 00:07:21,217 --> 00:07:23,767 And this was way more than Heinz could afford.239 00:07:24,907 --> 00:07:27,307 Heinz could only raise half the money.240 00:07:27,667 --> 00:07:30,067 Even after help from family and friends.241 00:07:30,427 --> 00:07:33,127 He explained to the chemist that his wife was dying.242 00:07:33,397 --> 00:07:36,937 and ask if he could have the drug cheaper or even just pay him the full amount.243 00:07:36,937 --> 00:07:37,657 But later.244 00:07:38,497 --> 00:07:41,257 The chemist refused saying that he discovered the drug.245 00:07:41,257 --> 00:07:42,187 and was going to make money.246 00:07:42,187 --> 00:07:42,697 from it.247 00:07:43,507 --> 00:07:46,417 The husband that's as high as was desperate to save his wife.248 00:07:46,417 --> 00:07:50,617 So later that night he broke into the chemists and stole the drug.249 00:07:51,877 --> 00:07:53,617 Now the questions Dave, I want to start with.250 00:07:53,617 --> 00:07:55,357 you should Heinz have stolen the drug.251 00:07:56,377 --> 00:07:56,827 no.252 00:07:57,517 --> 00:07:58,117 And why not?253 00:07:59,587 --> 00:08:01,267 Because it's not ethically.254 00:08:01,267 --> 00:08:03,122 Even if it meant his wife was going to die.255 00:08:03,872 --> 00:08:04,952 It's in God's hands.256 00:08:05,492 --> 00:08:06,852 That's a good way to look at that.257 00:08:07,352 --> 00:08:09,632 Wayne, what do you say should Heinz have stole the drug?258 00:08:10,632 --> 00:08:11,592 Probably not.259 00:08:12,252 --> 00:08:12,642 Interesting.260 00:08:12,672 --> 00:08:14,142 I can get by Why did.261 00:08:15,252 --> 00:08:15,462 And262 00:08:15,522 --> 00:08:16,422 you'd asked me.263 00:08:17,422 --> 00:08:18,742 Do I want him to264 00:08:18,892 --> 00:08:19,282 that's.265 00:08:20,102 --> 00:08:20,897 Yeah, We're not, yeah.266 00:08:20,957 --> 00:08:21,377 we're not.267 00:08:21,377 --> 00:08:23,207 asking legally What's right or wrong.268 00:08:23,207 --> 00:08:23,717 We're asking.269 00:08:23,717 --> 00:08:24,317 morally.270 00:08:24,317 --> 00:08:25,577 Yeah, And I get that.271 00:08:25,577 --> 00:08:27,917 and I get both sides and I'm sure somebody listened to it272 00:08:27,977 --> 00:08:29,777 will think I'm a horrible person.273 00:08:30,077 --> 00:08:33,385 But if my gauge is the Bible, then the answer's pretty274 00:08:33,415 --> 00:08:34,765 right there in front of me.275 00:08:34,765 --> 00:08:35,785 No, he shouldn't have stolen.276 00:08:36,055 --> 00:08:37,928 So now here's an interesting question.277 00:08:37,955 --> 00:08:38,735 Wayne, I'll start with you.278 00:08:38,735 --> 00:08:42,935 This time, would it change anything if Heinz did not love his wife?279 00:08:43,295 --> 00:08:43,595 Sure.280 00:08:43,925 --> 00:08:44,636 In what way?281 00:08:44,636 --> 00:08:45,789 When I was in college.282 00:08:45,999 --> 00:08:47,169 I took an ethics class.283 00:08:47,469 --> 00:08:48,069 And the284 00:08:48,249 --> 00:08:50,169 question was posed if you.285 00:08:51,399 --> 00:08:52,659 Pulled your father over.286 00:08:53,179 --> 00:08:54,439 And he.287 00:08:55,189 --> 00:08:56,029 It Was drunk.288 00:08:56,149 --> 00:08:57,109 What'd you take him to jail.289 00:08:57,109 --> 00:08:57,739 or take him home?290 00:08:58,069 --> 00:08:58,969 Interesting question.291 00:08:59,029 --> 00:09:00,559 And I said, I would take him home.292 00:09:00,769 --> 00:09:01,549 And somebody said.293 00:09:01,579 --> 00:09:02,389 I'd take him to jail.294 00:09:03,019 --> 00:09:03,859 And the teacher said295 00:09:03,961 --> 00:09:04,951 More kind of relationship.296 00:09:04,951 --> 00:09:05,941 Did you have with your father?297 00:09:07,381 --> 00:09:07,471 It298 00:09:07,471 --> 00:09:08,161 wasn't a good one.299 00:09:08,161 --> 00:09:08,671 I'm guessing.300 00:09:09,451 --> 00:09:09,631 Yeah.301 00:09:09,751 --> 00:09:11,191 It may take him home if it was a bad one.302 00:09:11,701 --> 00:09:12,241 Take him to jail.303 00:09:13,111 --> 00:09:13,621 Yeah, actually.304 00:09:13,651 --> 00:09:15,031 I actually did take my dad home.305 00:09:15,031 --> 00:09:15,721 So there you go.306 00:09:15,747 --> 00:09:17,817 On that let's go back to Heinz, right?307 00:09:18,117 --> 00:09:18,417 Yeah.308 00:09:18,567 --> 00:09:19,677 The Question to you, Dave.309 00:09:19,677 --> 00:09:20,757 Would it change anything?310 00:09:20,757 --> 00:09:22,857 if Heinz did not love his wife?311 00:09:23,937 --> 00:09:24,057 I'm312 00:09:24,057 --> 00:09:24,387 sure313 00:09:24,477 --> 00:09:24,867 would.314 00:09:24,917 --> 00:09:25,787 I shouldn't.315 00:09:25,860 --> 00:09:27,420 As far as moral high ground.316 00:09:27,630 --> 00:09:28,770 You do what's right.317 00:09:29,670 --> 00:09:30,130 But.318 00:09:30,130 --> 00:09:30,622 Yeah.319 00:09:30,802 --> 00:09:31,252 A.320 00:09:31,882 --> 00:09:33,862 It would change a lot of things if he didn't.321 00:09:34,012 --> 00:09:36,442 love her, it would be easier for him not to do it.322 00:09:36,502 --> 00:09:39,323 If he did love her, it'd be, I think it's is.323 00:09:39,893 --> 00:09:40,163 Am I.324 00:09:40,223 --> 00:09:40,433 work.325 00:09:40,673 --> 00:09:41,333 No, I agree.326 00:09:41,903 --> 00:09:42,023 Yeah.327 00:09:42,083 --> 00:09:43,973 I want to back up and I want to answer number one.328 00:09:43,973 --> 00:09:46,043 because my answer is different than yours.329 00:09:46,733 --> 00:09:48,053 And you guys are absolutely right.330 00:09:48,053 --> 00:09:51,533 God is in charge, but just knowing my personality.331 00:09:51,743 --> 00:09:53,153 I would have broken in.332 00:09:53,243 --> 00:09:54,593 and I would have stole that.333 00:09:55,073 --> 00:09:56,453 I would've given it to my wife.334 00:09:56,483 --> 00:09:59,033 And then I would have went to the police and turned myself in and said, Hey.335 00:09:59,093 --> 00:10:00,923 I would left all the money I had.336 00:10:00,923 --> 00:10:04,180 I tried to give him my car and said, I stole this from my wife.337 00:10:04,180 --> 00:10:06,310 We're going to see if she gets better, but take me to jail.338 00:10:06,910 --> 00:10:07,000 I339 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:08,410 think that's a great answer.340 00:10:08,590 --> 00:10:08,860 Aye.341 00:10:09,407 --> 00:10:12,107 I don't know if there's a right or wrong answer.342 00:10:12,107 --> 00:10:13,607 I get both sides of it.343 00:10:13,637 --> 00:10:15,527 And honestly344 00:10:15,587 --> 00:10:16,457 thinking on it,345 00:10:16,487 --> 00:10:17,439 I love my wife.346 00:10:17,467 --> 00:10:18,127 I think she.347 00:10:18,127 --> 00:10:18,217 was.348 00:10:18,265 --> 00:10:19,315 That's hard, man.349 00:10:19,315 --> 00:10:20,065 That's a tough one.350 00:10:20,065 --> 00:10:21,005 What do you think Wayne?351 00:10:21,005 --> 00:10:21,618 Ethically.352 00:10:21,948 --> 00:10:24,348 We probably shouldn't do it, but it makes me think of.353 00:10:24,978 --> 00:10:27,048 When Jesus was talking when they were talking to.354 00:10:27,438 --> 00:10:28,248 Jesus about.355 00:10:28,356 --> 00:10:31,026 His disciples didn't work on the Sabbath and all these rules.356 00:10:31,026 --> 00:10:32,226 And then he talked about David.357 00:10:32,646 --> 00:10:33,696 Going into the temple.358 00:10:34,176 --> 00:10:34,296 Yeah.359 00:10:34,416 --> 00:10:39,066 And feeding him and his men with the bread of the presence and all of that.360 00:10:39,666 --> 00:10:40,236 And he was like,361 00:10:40,896 --> 00:10:41,076 Hey362 00:10:41,130 --> 00:10:41,880 Is that really.363 00:10:42,450 --> 00:10:43,560 You're talking to the letter.364 00:10:44,940 --> 00:10:45,600 Versus,365 00:10:45,646 --> 00:10:45,991 yeah.366 00:10:46,681 --> 00:10:49,358 the thing is it's breaking the law and that's.367 00:10:49,358 --> 00:10:51,008 the thing you have to get back to.368 00:10:51,458 --> 00:10:54,322 And it's a tough, that is a tough answer.369 00:10:54,358 --> 00:10:56,878 I'm curious what people listening things.370 00:10:56,878 --> 00:10:59,964 Please make sure you talk to us and tell us those things.371 00:10:59,994 --> 00:11:00,624 what you think372 00:11:00,744 --> 00:11:02,002 this is a good stuff.373 00:11:02,032 --> 00:11:03,712 We've got two more questions here.374 00:11:03,952 --> 00:11:04,822 Here's the third.375 00:11:04,822 --> 00:11:05,092 one.376 00:11:05,392 --> 00:11:06,382 And you touched on this.377 00:11:06,382 --> 00:11:06,982 Dave, I'm going378 00:11:06,982 --> 00:11:07,702 to ask you first.379 00:11:07,702 --> 00:11:09,982 What if The person dying was a stranger.380 00:11:10,072 --> 00:11:10,642 to Heinz?381 00:11:10,642 --> 00:11:11,752 Would that make a difference?382 00:11:12,270 --> 00:11:12,750 No.383 00:11:13,500 --> 00:11:16,770 To me, it would, it probably should not, but to me it would.384 00:11:17,070 --> 00:11:18,000 Wayne, what about you?385 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:20,170 Corporately.386 00:11:20,410 --> 00:11:20,620 Yeah.387 00:11:20,620 --> 00:11:21,430 if you're talking.388 00:11:21,550 --> 00:11:22,390 big picture.389 00:11:23,230 --> 00:11:23,650 No.390 00:11:24,010 --> 00:11:25,600 I don't think it would have made a difference.391 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:27,250 But that's assuming.392 00:11:28,090 --> 00:11:28,870 That you're.393 00:11:29,500 --> 00:11:31,780 A person who, if you see somebody.394 00:11:32,290 --> 00:11:33,430 It need like.395 00:11:33,430 --> 00:11:34,750 out that you don't know.396 00:11:34,750 --> 00:11:36,280 like someone that's homeless or.397 00:11:36,700 --> 00:11:37,630 That's panhandling.398 00:11:38,740 --> 00:11:40,150 If you are the person who399 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:41,950 helps those people out.400 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:43,810 Then the answer is different.401 00:11:44,290 --> 00:11:46,870 But if you're not, then maybe the answer is.402 00:11:47,470 --> 00:11:48,490 I probably would403 00:11:48,490 --> 00:11:48,760 not.404 00:11:48,790 --> 00:11:49,780 Break in and405 00:11:49,780 --> 00:11:50,230 steal.406 00:11:50,230 --> 00:11:51,100 For a stranger.407 00:11:51,130 --> 00:11:51,220 And.408 00:11:51,220 --> 00:11:51,980 He go to jail.409 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,060 Doing the right thing is doing the right thing.410 00:11:55,210 --> 00:11:57,440 So maybe I would do the right thing.411 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,150 no matter whatever it is.412 00:11:59,150 --> 00:12:00,350 I wouldn't break the law.413 00:12:01,250 --> 00:12:02,060 Does that make sense?414 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,220 And that's your morals.415 00:12:04,250 --> 00:12:05,630 I would, in that case,416 00:12:05,630 --> 00:12:05,780 I.417 00:12:05,780 --> 00:12:06,290 got ya.418 00:12:06,830 --> 00:12:08,030 the answer is Now going to be.419 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:09,290 I want to do what's right.420 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:10,469 Yeah.421 00:12:10,541 --> 00:12:12,971 Let me add a twist to This This is the last answer.422 00:12:12,971 --> 00:12:13,211 Wayne.423 00:12:13,211 --> 00:12:14,861 I'm going to start with you and sorry, the last question.424 00:12:15,191 --> 00:12:16,271 Should The police425 00:12:16,361 --> 00:12:18,131 arrest the chemist for murder.426 00:12:18,311 --> 00:12:19,701 If Heinz wife died.427 00:12:20,201 --> 00:12:21,011 For murder.428 00:12:21,941 --> 00:12:22,811 not for murder.429 00:12:23,081 --> 00:12:23,711 I think.430 00:12:24,731 --> 00:12:25,571 That's a good question.431 00:12:25,971 --> 00:12:28,205 Y is manslaughter.432 00:12:29,045 --> 00:12:31,685 Lesser than murder when it sounds so much terrible.433 00:12:32,345 --> 00:12:32,915 I don't know.434 00:12:33,455 --> 00:12:35,015 Would you rather be murdered or slaughters?435 00:12:35,345 --> 00:12:35,945 Exactly.436 00:12:36,185 --> 00:12:36,605 right.437 00:12:36,695 --> 00:12:36,965 And you438 00:12:37,025 --> 00:12:38,705 arrest him for being a jerk?439 00:12:39,185 --> 00:12:40,025 That's a good one.440 00:12:40,925 --> 00:12:41,885 I cut you off.441 00:12:41,915 --> 00:12:42,845 Wayne, what was your answer442 00:12:42,875 --> 00:12:45,125 This whole conversation has made me think of.443 00:12:45,643 --> 00:12:46,243 It begins.444 00:12:46,543 --> 00:12:47,173 Oh, yeah.445 00:12:47,223 --> 00:12:48,677 That's really a good way to look at that.446 00:12:48,681 --> 00:12:49,701 Those don't cost a lot.447 00:12:50,841 --> 00:12:51,681 oh,448 00:12:51,711 --> 00:12:53,271 charge you a Fortune.449 00:12:53,301 --> 00:12:54,531 for them in some people.450 00:12:55,131 --> 00:12:56,301 Insurance doesn't cover it.451 00:12:56,571 --> 00:12:58,041 The way that it needs to, and.452 00:12:58,701 --> 00:13:00,471 You're end up in those kinds of.453 00:13:00,861 --> 00:13:01,551 situations.454 00:13:01,671 --> 00:13:02,571 this in real life.455 00:13:02,631 --> 00:13:04,439 I have a daughter that has severe allergy456 00:13:04,439 --> 00:13:06,703 Dave, to you, should the police arrest the chemist.457 00:13:06,823 --> 00:13:08,333 If she, if the wife dies.458 00:13:08,333 --> 00:13:09,386 That's a great question.459 00:13:09,457 --> 00:13:11,377 What law did the chemist break?460 00:13:11,437 --> 00:13:11,527 That's.461 00:13:11,767 --> 00:13:12,367 And that's it.462 00:13:12,367 --> 00:13:12,697 He didn't463 00:13:12,697 --> 00:13:13,537 break any law.464 00:13:13,567 --> 00:13:15,007 He was a jerk, like you said,465 00:13:15,037 --> 00:13:16,297 the answer is no.466 00:13:16,297 --> 00:13:16,627 Now.467 00:13:16,897 --> 00:13:19,957 if you ask me, do I want him to them to, yes.468 00:13:19,957 --> 00:13:21,517 Do I want something to happen to me?469 00:13:21,787 --> 00:13:22,297 Yes.470 00:13:22,357 --> 00:13:26,227 I want, I hate people who are mean and can be jerks.471 00:13:26,647 --> 00:13:29,107 And so that's really tough for me.472 00:13:29,137 --> 00:13:30,107 Does that make sense?473 00:13:30,135 --> 00:13:30,795 Yeah.474 00:13:31,215 --> 00:13:34,395 Now based on these stories and this one, specifically, in these.475 00:13:34,425 --> 00:13:35,265 four questions.476 00:13:35,715 --> 00:13:36,405 Kohlberg477 00:13:36,615 --> 00:13:40,395 ask, Remember children ages 10 to 16 and he came up with.478 00:13:40,395 --> 00:13:41,935 these six levels of.479 00:13:41,965 --> 00:13:43,315 He came up with three levels.480 00:13:43,765 --> 00:13:45,475 of moral development and each one has481 00:13:45,475 --> 00:13:46,345 two stages.482 00:13:46,375 --> 00:13:46,525 Let483 00:13:46,525 --> 00:13:47,395 me go over those.484 00:13:47,425 --> 00:13:48,685 The first one is called.485 00:13:48,985 --> 00:13:50,785 pre-conventional morality.486 00:13:51,265 --> 00:13:53,455 It's the initial stage of moral development.487 00:13:53,575 --> 00:13:57,115 and it lasts until the kids are riding around nine or 10 years old.488 00:13:57,655 --> 00:14:00,835 They don't have a personal moral code at this level.489 00:14:01,045 --> 00:14:02,815 And the moral decisions are made or the.490 00:14:03,085 --> 00:14:06,415 Excuse me, the made by the adult standards and the consequences491 00:14:06,415 --> 00:14:07,645 of following the rules.492 00:14:08,035 --> 00:14:10,465 For example, if an action leads to punishment.493 00:14:10,525 --> 00:14:11,665 it must be bad.494 00:14:12,115 --> 00:14:15,115 And if an action leads to reward, it must be good.495 00:14:15,595 --> 00:14:17,035 Authority is outside496 00:14:17,065 --> 00:14:20,245 the individual and children often make moral decisions based497 00:14:20,275 --> 00:14:21,715 on the physical consequences498 00:14:21,715 --> 00:14:22,375 of actions.499 00:14:22,405 --> 00:14:22,585 They've.500 00:14:22,585 --> 00:14:23,215 How does that square501 00:14:23,215 --> 00:14:23,935 with your kids?502 00:14:24,655 --> 00:14:25,195 As far.503 00:14:25,742 --> 00:14:27,902 As far as what specifically.504 00:14:27,962 --> 00:14:29,282 If someone breaks505 00:14:29,312 --> 00:14:31,832 a rule it's wrong, no matter what the rule.506 00:14:31,832 --> 00:14:32,192 is.507 00:14:32,192 --> 00:14:33,182 In a kid's mind.508 00:14:33,182 --> 00:14:34,262 to do a certain age.509 00:14:34,802 --> 00:14:35,552 Aye.510 00:14:36,212 --> 00:14:36,902 My kids.511 00:14:36,902 --> 00:14:38,222 You never know what they're going to think.512 00:14:38,252 --> 00:14:38,312 Yeah.513 00:14:39,422 --> 00:14:40,292 Waking up about you.514 00:14:41,292 --> 00:14:41,562 the most.515 00:14:41,592 --> 00:14:42,702 Most part that's true.516 00:14:42,882 --> 00:14:45,582 Especially if I break the rule.517 00:14:45,822 --> 00:14:46,482 Oh yeah.518 00:14:46,872 --> 00:14:49,032 if I break the rule, they know it to the letter.519 00:14:49,122 --> 00:14:49,932 If they break the rule.520 00:14:49,962 --> 00:14:50,425 it's Yeah.521 00:14:50,425 --> 00:14:50,815 That's522 00:14:50,845 --> 00:14:51,145 that?523 00:14:51,205 --> 00:14:51,505 That's524 00:14:51,505 --> 00:14:52,165 very true.525 00:14:52,225 --> 00:14:54,115 I think I, I see that as well.526 00:14:54,175 --> 00:14:54,295 One.527 00:14:54,325 --> 00:14:54,415 One.528 00:14:54,445 --> 00:14:55,135 The studies.529 00:14:55,135 --> 00:14:56,245 that I looked at during.530 00:14:56,245 --> 00:14:57,745 the research for this podcast.531 00:14:57,745 --> 00:14:59,605 was one of the things that Kohlberg found.532 00:15:00,115 --> 00:15:00,595 was that533 00:15:00,595 --> 00:15:02,035 kids will attribute534 00:15:02,185 --> 00:15:04,675 wrongness to an action based on the severity of.535 00:15:04,675 --> 00:15:07,805 the rule broken and not have it not take.536 00:15:08,305 --> 00:15:09,955 I guess Desire or anything like that.537 00:15:09,955 --> 00:15:10,555 into play.538 00:15:11,275 --> 00:15:13,615 For example, if a kid picks up a glass.539 00:15:13,765 --> 00:15:16,975 and smashes it down, intentionally breaking the glass.540 00:15:17,455 --> 00:15:19,435 The kit, both the kid and they don't, we'll say that's wrong.541 00:15:19,435 --> 00:15:20,125 He broke the glass.542 00:15:20,125 --> 00:15:22,645 But if a kid goes running through a door and the door543 00:15:22,675 --> 00:15:24,385 smashes into a tray of glasses,544 00:15:24,385 --> 00:15:25,765 and breaks five glasses,545 00:15:26,095 --> 00:15:30,565 A child under 10 will tell you that child is more wrong than the first one, because546 00:15:30,565 --> 00:15:32,395 the motive that motive doesn't matter.547 00:15:32,425 --> 00:15:35,905 the kid broke five glasses there for that is worse than breaking one glass.548 00:15:36,715 --> 00:15:37,045 Wow.549 00:15:38,059 --> 00:15:40,279 What are your thoughts with that, Chris?550 00:15:41,089 --> 00:15:43,129 I think that's like Kohlberg suggested.551 00:15:43,159 --> 00:15:46,639 It's definitely tied to cognitive development Children don't552 00:15:46,639 --> 00:15:49,999 understand motives at that age, so they can't take them into account.553 00:15:50,359 --> 00:15:50,929 I got you.554 00:15:50,989 --> 00:15:51,979 What do you think Wayne?555 00:15:52,189 --> 00:15:52,309 It556 00:15:52,309 --> 00:15:52,849 reminds me.557 00:15:52,939 --> 00:15:53,269 of.558 00:15:54,319 --> 00:15:54,889 The.559 00:15:55,699 --> 00:15:56,689 Giving a kid.560 00:15:56,773 --> 00:15:58,153 Change versus dollars.561 00:15:58,333 --> 00:15:58,783 Oh yeah.562 00:15:58,813 --> 00:15:59,533 Good point.563 00:16:00,943 --> 00:16:01,133 Yeah.564 00:16:01,133 --> 00:16:01,904 They want more.565 00:16:02,204 --> 00:16:03,464 the coins, the number.566 00:16:03,464 --> 00:16:05,414 of coins not the value567 00:16:05,444 --> 00:16:06,194 of the coins.568 00:16:06,464 --> 00:16:06,914 Yeah.569 00:16:07,304 --> 00:16:07,874 That's good.570 00:16:08,054 --> 00:16:08,684 Very good.571 00:16:08,894 --> 00:16:10,771 So there's two stages of level one.572 00:16:11,101 --> 00:16:13,201 The first is obedience and punishment.573 00:16:13,291 --> 00:16:16,111 The rules are fixed and handed down by the authority.574 00:16:16,501 --> 00:16:18,061 And the child or the individual.575 00:16:18,541 --> 00:16:21,211 Is good in order to avoid being punished.576 00:16:21,271 --> 00:16:22,621 And if a person is punished.577 00:16:22,651 --> 00:16:23,851 They must have done wrong.578 00:16:23,881 --> 00:16:24,781 whether they did wrong?579 00:16:24,781 --> 00:16:25,201 or not.580 00:16:25,201 --> 00:16:25,891 If a person is581 00:16:25,891 --> 00:16:27,541 punished to a child at this level.582 00:16:27,691 --> 00:16:28,981 they must have done wrong.583 00:16:30,121 --> 00:16:32,761 After a while they'll move to stage two and that's going584 00:16:32,761 --> 00:16:33,961 to call the individualism.585 00:16:33,991 --> 00:16:34,771 and exchange.586 00:16:34,831 --> 00:16:36,301 And at this stage, children.587 00:16:36,301 --> 00:16:37,501 recognize there's not588 00:16:37,501 --> 00:16:38,911 just one, right.589 00:16:38,911 --> 00:16:39,211 view.590 00:16:39,211 --> 00:16:40,951 That's handed down by the authorities.591 00:16:41,401 --> 00:16:41,641 And the592 00:16:41,641 --> 00:16:42,391 action is right.593 00:16:42,421 --> 00:16:43,981 If it serves the individual.594 00:16:44,341 --> 00:16:44,671 Now that's595 00:16:44,671 --> 00:16:45,241 interesting.596 00:16:45,421 --> 00:16:46,651 because children at this stage.597 00:16:46,711 --> 00:16:49,471 believe that if it gets me, what I want it's right.598 00:16:49,621 --> 00:16:50,821 No matter what they do.599 00:16:51,301 --> 00:16:53,041 You guys never had experiences like that out.600 00:16:54,301 --> 00:16:55,291 I don't know what you're talking about.601 00:16:56,731 --> 00:16:57,301 Yay.602 00:16:57,871 --> 00:16:58,801 Here's the thing.603 00:16:58,801 --> 00:17:02,521 And this is what I appreciate a lot about you, Chris.604 00:17:02,573 --> 00:17:06,008 Not everyone knows your background, but you profile.605 00:17:06,039 --> 00:17:07,779 That's what you did with the FBI.606 00:17:07,779 --> 00:17:08,109 at some607 00:17:08,379 --> 00:17:08,919 Four years.608 00:17:08,919 --> 00:17:09,159 Yeah.609 00:17:09,189 --> 00:17:09,459 Yeah.610 00:17:09,579 --> 00:17:11,326 And trying to figure people out.611 00:17:11,326 --> 00:17:12,944 is can anyone do that up to.612 00:17:13,574 --> 00:17:14,054 Oh, yeah.613 00:17:14,084 --> 00:17:14,684 Yeah.614 00:17:14,984 --> 00:17:15,194 It's615 00:17:15,344 --> 00:17:16,034 just a skill.616 00:17:16,034 --> 00:17:16,754 You can learn it like.617 00:17:16,784 --> 00:17:18,254 you learn how to fix a car.618 00:17:18,464 --> 00:17:18,854 right?619 00:17:19,184 --> 00:17:20,924 Because people's morals are.620 00:17:21,824 --> 00:17:23,144 They're all different, right though.621 00:17:23,144 --> 00:17:24,044 They're all different.622 00:17:24,314 --> 00:17:24,494 They're623 00:17:24,614 --> 00:17:27,644 You can figure them out who they are and you can figure out the ones624 00:17:27,644 --> 00:17:29,504 that have no morals pretty quickly.625 00:17:29,654 --> 00:17:30,914 And they will tell you.626 00:17:31,184 --> 00:17:32,684 much more about themselves.627 00:17:32,864 --> 00:17:34,034 Here's a great example.628 00:17:34,034 --> 00:17:35,624 I was in Spain.629 00:17:35,864 --> 00:17:39,284 and in Barcelona, and there was a sign up in the middle of a place called630 00:17:39,434 --> 00:17:40,844 Ramble as that said, beware of.631 00:17:40,844 --> 00:17:41,684 Pickpockets.632 00:17:41,811 --> 00:17:45,051 The locals will tell you the police did not put that sign up.633 00:17:45,081 --> 00:17:47,031 the pig pockets, put that sign up.634 00:17:47,451 --> 00:17:49,641 Now why would a pickpocket put that sign up?635 00:17:49,971 --> 00:17:50,541 As soon as you636 00:17:50,541 --> 00:17:51,861 hear beware of pickpockets,637 00:17:51,861 --> 00:17:52,731 what's the first thing you do?638 00:17:52,731 --> 00:17:56,511 You check your wallet, you tap your but If your wallet's there or your pocket.639 00:17:56,511 --> 00:17:58,821 to see in, you're just showing them my wallet right here.640 00:17:59,181 --> 00:18:00,351 Oh, wow.641 00:18:00,471 --> 00:18:01,311 man.642 00:18:02,091 --> 00:18:03,051 That's good.643 00:18:03,066 --> 00:18:03,870 That's not good.644 00:18:03,870 --> 00:18:04,740 but that's good.645 00:18:04,740 --> 00:18:05,130 That's.646 00:18:05,700 --> 00:18:06,960 Wow.647 00:18:07,290 --> 00:18:08,370 They will tell you everything.648 00:18:08,370 --> 00:18:09,090 If you watch.649 00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:10,560 I'm telling you guys, Chris.650 00:18:10,590 --> 00:18:12,990 he's got a lot of good information.651 00:18:13,230 --> 00:18:13,320 you.652 00:18:13,470 --> 00:18:13,860 That's good.653 00:18:13,860 --> 00:18:14,430 That's good.654 00:18:14,430 --> 00:18:15,450 That's a good insight.655 00:18:15,450 --> 00:18:15,870 I think.656 00:18:16,530 --> 00:18:17,640 To the way we are.657 00:18:17,670 --> 00:18:18,030 Yeah.658 00:18:18,750 --> 00:18:19,950 Let's move on to level two.659 00:18:19,980 --> 00:18:20,910 This is level two.660 00:18:20,910 --> 00:18:23,040 is where the majority of people are.661 00:18:23,550 --> 00:18:25,770 Level two is called conventional morality.662 00:18:26,190 --> 00:18:28,200 It's the second stage of moral development.663 00:18:28,290 --> 00:18:30,390 And it's the most basic level.664 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:32,340 We begin to at the most basic level.665 00:18:32,340 --> 00:18:35,010 we begin to internalize the moral standards of a666 00:18:35,010 --> 00:18:37,020 respected adult role models.667 00:18:37,470 --> 00:18:41,430 Internal authority is not questioned and reasoning is based on the group668 00:18:41,460 --> 00:18:43,470 norms to which the individual belongs.669 00:18:44,940 --> 00:18:46,440 There are two.670 00:18:46,518 --> 00:18:48,948 Group two stages in this one as well, the first one's called671 00:18:48,978 --> 00:18:50,658 interpersonal according conformity.672 00:18:50,958 --> 00:18:52,368 This is where the individual.673 00:18:52,818 --> 00:18:54,318 Is good to be seen.674 00:18:54,498 --> 00:18:57,468 It's good to be seen as good by other people.675 00:18:57,708 --> 00:19:00,738 In other words, it values what other people think of you.676 00:19:01,098 --> 00:19:01,248 Yeah.677 00:19:01,878 --> 00:19:03,978 relate to the approval of others.678 00:19:04,098 --> 00:19:06,828 And this is the fourth stage that kids will go through.679 00:19:07,278 --> 00:19:07,968 The neck, I'm sorry.680 00:19:07,968 --> 00:19:08,568 the third stage,681 00:19:08,598 --> 00:19:09,828 the Next is the four stage682 00:19:09,858 --> 00:19:11,658 and that's maintaining social order.683 00:19:12,018 --> 00:19:15,528 This is where the individual becomes aware of the wider rules of society.684 00:19:15,798 --> 00:19:19,098 and judgment concerning obeying the rules in order to uphold the law.685 00:19:19,188 --> 00:19:20,388 and avoid guilt.686 00:19:20,988 --> 00:19:23,058 And remember, you have to travel through these in order.687 00:19:23,058 --> 00:19:24,288 So we're on stage four.688 00:19:24,318 --> 00:19:25,468 You've gone through.689 00:19:25,496 --> 00:19:28,406 The first stage where the rules are the rules and you're right or wrong.690 00:19:28,406 --> 00:19:32,846 If you break them or uphold them, the second stage was everything that gets me.691 00:19:32,846 --> 00:19:34,316 What I want is okay.692 00:19:34,736 --> 00:19:36,056 The third stage is693 00:19:36,116 --> 00:19:36,866 you want to be694 00:19:36,866 --> 00:19:38,186 seen as good.695 00:19:38,516 --> 00:19:43,616 And the forest stage is you don't want to feel guilty over anything.696 00:19:44,156 --> 00:19:45,536 This is where most people are.697 00:19:45,836 --> 00:19:49,278 I think I, I think we've all experienced every one of them at some point.698 00:19:49,698 --> 00:19:51,491 And, You brought a good point earlier.699 00:19:51,491 --> 00:19:53,108 We see it in our kids for sure.700 00:19:53,174 --> 00:19:54,344 There's a lot to that.701 00:19:54,434 --> 00:19:55,904 There's a lot to unpack.702 00:19:55,904 --> 00:19:56,924 I think don't you.703 00:19:58,064 --> 00:19:58,934 agree completely.704 00:19:58,964 --> 00:20:01,844 So that's hard though, to understand.705 00:20:01,866 --> 00:20:04,296 Why we are the way we are?706 00:20:04,416 --> 00:20:04,836 Yes.707 00:20:05,336 --> 00:20:06,806 But we're going to let Wayne write a book on708 00:20:06,806 --> 00:20:06,896 that.709 00:20:06,986 --> 00:20:07,256 How's that710 00:20:07,406 --> 00:20:08,096 I'm sure he will.711 00:20:08,426 --> 00:20:09,176 I think about this.712 00:20:09,176 --> 00:20:10,886 We've got two more to go, but think about this.713 00:20:10,886 --> 00:20:11,996 What about someone?714 00:20:12,326 --> 00:20:14,186 That may be on level four.715 00:20:14,576 --> 00:20:14,936 And716 00:20:14,936 --> 00:20:17,216 they're worried about feeling guilty and they're trying to717 00:20:17,216 --> 00:20:19,766 discuss morals with somebody let's say on level718 00:20:19,766 --> 00:20:20,306 two.719 00:20:20,696 --> 00:20:21,716 And it doesn't matter720 00:20:21,716 --> 00:20:23,066 as long as you get what you want.721 00:20:23,096 --> 00:20:24,116 That's not going to be.722 00:20:24,146 --> 00:20:24,446 they're723 00:20:24,446 --> 00:20:26,066 never going to see eye to eye Are they?724 00:20:26,066 --> 00:20:26,666 that's not going to725 00:20:26,666 --> 00:20:27,776 be an even debate.726 00:20:28,256 --> 00:20:28,436 No.727 00:20:28,736 --> 00:20:29,126 no.728 00:20:29,636 --> 00:20:30,596 A hundred percent now.729 00:20:30,836 --> 00:20:34,616 I'm sure as parents, you have been on one moral level trying to explain to730 00:20:34,616 --> 00:20:37,166 your children on a different moral level, and you're just731 00:20:37,166 --> 00:20:38,246 not getting through to them.732 00:20:38,248 --> 00:20:39,268 They can't comprehend.733 00:20:39,268 --> 00:20:39,598 that.734 00:20:39,628 --> 00:20:40,667 Can I talk about now?735 00:20:41,437 --> 00:20:42,187 there we go.736 00:20:42,247 --> 00:20:42,847 Oh,737 00:20:43,327 --> 00:20:44,287 goodness.738 00:20:44,437 --> 00:20:44,737 Let's go.739 00:20:44,737 --> 00:20:45,277 to The last740 00:20:45,277 --> 00:20:45,697 level.741 00:20:46,027 --> 00:20:47,917 This is pre-conventional morality.742 00:20:47,947 --> 00:20:49,717 Most people never get to this level.743 00:20:50,257 --> 00:20:53,137 It's the third stage of moral development and is characterized.744 00:20:53,137 --> 00:20:56,887 by an individual's understanding of universal ethical principles.745 00:20:57,228 --> 00:21:00,228 These are what I like to call biblical principles that you mentioned, Dave.746 00:21:00,528 --> 00:21:03,078 They're abstract and they're ill-defined.747 00:21:03,528 --> 00:21:07,370 But they may include the preservation of life at All costs or the748 00:21:07,370 --> 00:21:08,930 importance of human dignity.749 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:10,910 You can have either one of those or both.750 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:15,680 Individual judgment is based on self chosen principles and moral reasoning is751 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,290 based on individual rights and justice.752 00:21:18,740 --> 00:21:19,880 Now, according to Kohlberg.753 00:21:19,910 --> 00:21:21,320 this level of moral reasoning.754 00:21:21,710 --> 00:21:24,020 Is more than most people get.755 00:21:24,020 --> 00:21:29,240 And only 10 to 15% of people are capable of this type of abstract thinking.756 00:21:30,170 --> 00:21:31,640 Stage five in this.757 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:32,540 Is the758 00:21:32,540 --> 00:21:37,250 individual becomes aware that while rules or laws may exist for the greatest number?759 00:21:37,580 --> 00:21:40,970 There are times when they'll work against the rule or the law or the760 00:21:40,970 --> 00:21:44,540 Interest of particular individuals and the issues are not clear.761 00:21:44,540 --> 00:21:46,220 Cut like Heinz's dilemma.762 00:21:46,220 --> 00:21:46,760 We discussed.763 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:47,840 Those issues were not clear.764 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:48,110 Cut.765 00:21:48,590 --> 00:21:49,010 Gotcha.766 00:21:50,300 --> 00:21:51,860 The last is stage six, and767 00:21:51,860 --> 00:21:53,630 this is called universal principles.768 00:21:53,660 --> 00:21:55,310 People at this stage have developed their769 00:21:55,340 --> 00:21:57,080 own set of moral guidelines.770 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,660 in which is typically the biblical ones that we follow.771 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:01,460 And they may or may not fit the772 00:22:01,460 --> 00:22:01,880 law.773 00:22:01,970 --> 00:22:03,860 The principle applies to everyone.774 00:22:03,890 --> 00:22:04,430 The person775 00:22:04,460 --> 00:22:04,790 will be.776 00:22:04,940 --> 00:22:06,860 In other words, let me explain that to the principal.777 00:22:07,130 --> 00:22:07,430 If it's778 00:22:07,430 --> 00:22:08,000 good for me, it's779 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:08,690 good for you.780 00:22:08,900 --> 00:22:11,300 It doesn't just apply to me It Applies to everyone.781 00:22:11,570 --> 00:22:15,260 and the person will be prepared to act and to defend the principles, even if it782 00:22:15,260 --> 00:22:17,450 means going against the rest of society.783 00:22:18,020 --> 00:22:21,660 Kohlberg doubted very few people have ever reached this stage.784 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:23,600 What do you think Wayne.785 00:22:23,690 --> 00:22:23,990 No.786 00:22:23,990 --> 00:22:24,920 Anyone has ever.787 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:27,270 Grace that stage.788 00:22:28,530 --> 00:22:28,950 No.789 00:22:29,580 --> 00:22:30,540 Not that I can think of.790 00:22:30,930 --> 00:22:31,560 It's a tough791 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:32,490 it's not me.792 00:22:32,790 --> 00:22:33,090 For sure.793 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:33,990 All right.794 00:22:33,990 --> 00:22:36,030 Let me inject a little bit of drama in this.795 00:22:37,020 --> 00:22:38,070 What flaws.796 00:22:38,700 --> 00:22:39,240 Here we go.797 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,880 What flaws can you see with this study?798 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:44,440 They, what flaws Do you see with this?799 00:22:44,470 --> 00:22:44,620 day?800 00:22:45,620 --> 00:22:46,460 As a whole.801 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,600 Yeah, I think there's a lot of predicting going on.802 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:51,740 I think there's a lot of803 00:22:51,770 --> 00:22:52,473 I don't know.804 00:22:52,473 --> 00:22:54,903 Just people or you just never know.805 00:22:55,653 --> 00:22:57,273 What you're going to get with people.806 00:22:57,483 --> 00:22:59,283 The goal has to be.807 00:23:00,303 --> 00:23:00,453 The808 00:23:00,483 --> 00:23:02,703 the ultimate for me morally.809 00:23:03,063 --> 00:23:05,073 It is Again, the word of God.810 00:23:05,073 --> 00:23:05,433 And if I.811 00:23:06,453 --> 00:23:07,753 And if I do that, then.812 00:23:07,770 --> 00:23:09,030 I'm on the right track.813 00:23:09,060 --> 00:23:12,810 What do you think, Wayne And I'll come back on that to go ahead.814 00:23:13,050 --> 00:23:14,910 The whole of the theory.815 00:23:15,330 --> 00:23:16,170 Same space.816 00:23:16,500 --> 00:23:18,150 On presupposition.817 00:23:18,660 --> 00:23:18,900 True.818 00:23:19,140 --> 00:23:19,890 One way or the other.819 00:23:20,700 --> 00:23:22,641 You're out there moral or you're not moral.820 00:23:22,691 --> 00:23:24,461 So it's one of those.821 00:23:24,701 --> 00:23:27,371 The theory will never be settled because there are no.822 00:23:27,821 --> 00:23:29,111 There's not just one.823 00:23:29,321 --> 00:23:30,281 type of person.824 00:23:30,491 --> 00:23:31,031 Very good.825 00:23:31,331 --> 00:23:32,141 Very interesting.826 00:23:32,861 --> 00:23:34,571 Yeah, I think.827 00:23:34,583 --> 00:23:35,718 It's really good.828 00:23:35,748 --> 00:23:36,558 It's really829 00:23:36,590 --> 00:23:38,012 It's hard to obtain.830 00:23:38,882 --> 00:23:38,972 A831 00:23:39,212 --> 00:23:40,262 of what they're talking about.832 00:23:40,262 --> 00:23:41,432 trying to understand it.833 00:23:41,432 --> 00:23:42,285 Does that make sense?834 00:23:42,285 --> 00:23:43,177 It completely does.835 00:23:44,467 --> 00:23:45,277 What do you think?836 00:23:45,577 --> 00:23:47,227 Here's a couple, I saw837 00:23:47,467 --> 00:23:49,747 number one, life experience.838 00:23:49,807 --> 00:23:51,907 He got this from kids 10 to 16.839 00:23:51,907 --> 00:23:52,357 What do they840 00:23:52,357 --> 00:23:53,707 know about saving a wife?841 00:23:53,737 --> 00:23:54,127 They don't842 00:23:54,127 --> 00:23:55,627 have that emotional attachment.843 00:23:55,657 --> 00:23:56,977 They've never lived there.844 00:23:57,007 --> 00:23:58,597 I did think that actually.845 00:23:59,047 --> 00:23:59,827 That's good.846 00:24:01,147 --> 00:24:03,667 But I was thinking they were much more mature than I thought.847 00:24:04,867 --> 00:24:06,757 Very mature 10 to 16 year olds.848 00:24:06,817 --> 00:24:08,587 I was like, they haven't been to my house.849 00:24:08,677 --> 00:24:09,397 The second thing850 00:24:09,397 --> 00:24:09,457 I851 00:24:09,457 --> 00:24:11,167 noticed is it doesn't match852 00:24:11,197 --> 00:24:13,207 the internal versus the external debate.853 00:24:13,237 --> 00:24:15,277 We normally go through most people.854 00:24:15,307 --> 00:24:16,237 And whether you855 00:24:16,237 --> 00:24:16,987 like it or not.856 00:24:17,017 --> 00:24:18,097 this applies to us.857 00:24:18,487 --> 00:24:20,257 have an internal set of moral code.858 00:24:20,287 --> 00:24:22,897 That's different than the ones we apply to everyone else.859 00:24:23,017 --> 00:24:25,013 And it doesn't seem to account for that at all.860 00:24:25,013 --> 00:24:25,506 And green.861 00:24:26,256 --> 00:24:28,086 I've got one thing I want to wrap it up with.862 00:24:28,356 --> 00:24:31,386 What does the Bible say about different moral developments?863 00:24:31,416 --> 00:24:34,626 And this is a beautiful verse is one of my favorites, Romans 14.864 00:24:34,626 --> 00:24:35,736 two through four.865 00:24:36,306 --> 00:24:36,576 One866 00:24:36,576 --> 00:24:37,986 person believes he may eat867 00:24:37,986 --> 00:24:38,646 anything868 00:24:38,826 --> 00:24:40,596 while the weak person eats only869 00:24:40,596 --> 00:24:41,346 vegetables.870 00:24:41,736 --> 00:24:42,576 Let not the one871 00:24:42,576 --> 00:24:44,856 who eats, despise the one who abstains.872 00:24:44,886 --> 00:24:47,136 And let not the one who abstains pass judgment873 00:24:47,136 --> 00:24:49,686 on the one who eats for God has welcomed him.874 00:24:50,196 --> 00:24:52,896 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another.875 00:24:53,376 --> 00:24:57,366 It is before his own master that he stands or falls and he will be upheld876 00:24:57,366 --> 00:24:59,586 for the Lord is able to make him stand.877 00:25:00,126 --> 00:25:00,606 Hey man.878 00:25:01,026 --> 00:25:01,926 That's good.879 00:25:01,956 --> 00:25:02,346 fit.880 00:25:02,646 --> 00:25:03,726 It fits perfect.881 00:25:03,726 --> 00:25:03,876 It's882 00:25:03,876 --> 00:25:05,796 a lot with what's going on in the world today, too.883 00:25:05,856 --> 00:25:06,456 Yeah.884 00:25:06,606 --> 00:25:07,056 Yeah.885 00:25:07,056 --> 00:25:07,546 I think886 00:25:07,546 --> 00:25:10,349 Ultimately, it comes down to this.887 00:25:10,739 --> 00:25:12,119 Do we obey guide?888 00:25:12,239 --> 00:25:13,199 And if we do.889 00:25:14,579 --> 00:25:14,939 And what890 00:25:14,969 --> 00:25:16,949 do you think in closing Wayne?891 00:25:16,949 --> 00:25:17,699 You got anything?892 00:25:17,939 --> 00:25:20,072 Yeah, If you don't have a foundation.893 00:25:20,852 --> 00:25:21,812 You're not going to have.894 00:25:23,132 --> 00:25:24,122 Anything to build on.895 00:25:24,632 --> 00:25:25,152 That's true.896 00:25:25,177 --> 00:25:25,657 Jesus.897 00:25:25,657 --> 00:25:26,617 is the cornerstone.898 00:25:27,097 --> 00:25:28,807 He's Either your stumbling block.899 00:25:29,257 --> 00:25:30,547 Oh, you brought it now.900 00:25:31,327 --> 00:25:32,107 Here we go.901 00:25:32,137 --> 00:25:33,037 Come on now.902 00:25:33,604 --> 00:25:33,934 that.903 00:25:35,404 --> 00:25:40,024 I think ultimately it comes down to where you are as far as your life.904 00:25:40,024 --> 00:25:40,264 goes.905 00:25:40,294 --> 00:25:41,854 Matthew 6 24 says this.906 00:25:42,184 --> 00:25:45,244 No one can serve two masters for either he will hate one907 00:25:45,574 --> 00:25:47,404 or love the other, or he will.908 00:25:48,214 --> 00:25:51,514 be devoted to one and despise the other.909 00:25:51,514 --> 00:25:51,934 Amen.910 00:25:53,224 --> 00:25:54,664 You can't serve God and money.911 00:25:55,001 --> 00:25:56,231 And that's pretty much it.912 00:25:56,231 --> 00:25:57,281 You got to make a choice.913 00:25:57,311 --> 00:25:58,601 I'm going to serve God.914 00:25:58,841 --> 00:25:59,681 with everything.915 00:25:59,711 --> 00:26:00,281 I have.916 00:26:01,181 --> 00:26:01,781 Amen.917 00:26:02,051 --> 00:26:02,111 It918 00:26:02,111 --> 00:26:04,511 says this, but Peter and the apostles answered.919 00:26:04,811 --> 00:26:07,061 We must obey God rather than men.920 00:26:08,231 --> 00:26:08,321 I921 00:26:08,321 --> 00:26:09,221 think that's it.922 00:26:09,221 --> 00:26:10,991 And I think that's what we'll close on.923 00:26:10,991 --> 00:26:11,531 You guys?924 00:26:11,681 --> 00:26:12,611 Anything else?925 00:26:13,331 --> 00:26:16,211 People listening stop by lead1212.com And let us know what926 00:26:16,211 --> 00:26:16,601 you think.927 00:26:16,601 --> 00:26:20,201 I would love to hear your answers to these questions about Heinz and his wife.928 00:26:20,681 --> 00:26:21,011 Yeah.929 00:26:21,671 --> 00:26:22,829 That would be really good.930 00:26:22,879 --> 00:26:24,259 Everybody have a great week.931 00:26:24,259 --> 00:26:25,009 God bless.932 00:26:25,069 --> 00:26:25,609 Thanks for listening.