Hey everybody. We are back. The three Amigos. We’re excited to be talking to you today about Chris, what are we talking about? Today we’re going to finish up followership on episode 18. We began discussing our two-part discussion of followership, and we ended with discussing Kelly typology of followership.
Gotcha. Wayne, how are you? Good, man. How are you? Living the life, my brother, trying to get my blood pressure down. But other than that, I’m doing good. Everybody else. Good. Chris doing great. Good Jayden. That’s our dog. This with it. She might hear her snoring. She’s our mascot. We love her.
All right, let’s get rolling. All right. So the last time we ended with Kelly typology, and I’ll give a quick review of that. Kelly typology is the most recognized form of followership. It comes from Robert Kelly in his book, “The Power of Followership”. And he argues that the power of followers usually goes unrecognized. Would you guys agree with that?
Sure. Wayne, what do you think. Yes.
He also argues that followers are a vital part of leadership. And he emphasized that the motivations of followers and their behavior is used to shape leadership and. The goal of Kelly’s typology is to become what’s called an exemplary follower. Gotcha. And it’s important that we put this down in later as we finish this up and at the end, we’ll have some scripture, but the main goal for us as Christians is to follow Christ.
Absolutely. We follow him as our example, we understand the importance of being a follower. And I don’t know if we teach that enough. I think sometimes. We we do the old lead follower get out of my way and I get it, but I think we need to follow. And sometimes we don’t teach that enough in the church. So you’re absolutely right.
Just a second thought there, we don’t teach much about following it all. We’ll teach you how to be a good leader. But how to be a good follower that never comes up. Never an ultimately. That’s our calling is to follow Christ. What do you think Wayne? I think a good leader has to be a follower.
Then we got to follow somebody. Absolutely. Amen. Amen. So according to Kelly. Followers have two styles. And this is again what we went over in the last episode. They have independent and critical thinking or their depended and uncritical thinking. And of those two dimensions, you get five follower types.
The passive followers, these are the sheep and they look to the leader for everything, both the direction and motivation. And you get conformist. Those were yes, people. And they’re always on the leader side and they still look to the leader for guidance and direction. Then you get the alienated followers. These people think for themselves, and they have a lot of negative energy and they’re usually always against the leader.
The fourth type is a pragmatic followers and these are the fence sitters. They support the status quo, but they don’t get on board until everybody else does. And the last is the exemplary followers. These are the star followers. These are our goals. What’s another name for an exemplary follower, Dave.
That’s a good question. Have you ever had someone that you consider to be a really good follower? You are really close to them and you may even call them friend. Sure absolutely. I’ve got a verse for us here. This is in John 15:15. Jesus says no longer do I call you servants for the servant does not know what his master is doing, but I’ve called you friends for all that I ever heard from my father. I have made known to you.
That’s good. One of the things that I want to make sure we get across. This isn’t being passive aggressive. This is actually following someone you believe in. And when you do that and when you have people do that for you, ultimately I think Wayne. Put it really good. Just a few minutes ago. We’re all following something. We are.
And if we’re following ourself, we’re in destruction mode. And so we need to really think on who we’re following while we’re following and how do we. I guess I get word as exemplify that to other people, show that to other people and to be the follower of the one that you believe in. I agree with that.
Oh, there you go. Take care of Palo’s. It’s been rough. When the day I got there, though, I’m back. He’s back.
Okay. Based on those five types. We know that exemplary or effective followers have four qualities. Number one they self-manage and think for themselves. Number two, they have a strong commitment to the organizational goals. Number three, they build competence and they master their job skills. Number four, they’re ethical and courageous.
They may even dare to challenge the leader. And. There’s a correct time to do that. And there’s an incorrect time to do that. Ephesians four 15 tells us. Rather speaking the truth in love. We are to grow up in every way into him, who is the head into Christ. So you’ve got to do that in love. Yeah. And if we understand.
Every commandment from Jesus talks about loving each other. And honestly, I don’t know if we do it well
I agree with that completely. The problem with it is we’re scared. And I know every one of us is listening to this. At some point you’ve been hurt by someone else. And when you get hurt, That hurt comes across in a situation where you don’t want to follow anybody because you’re afraid you’re gonna get hurt again.
That’s true. Here’s the reality. And this is what we got. Understand the problem wasn’t us. It was the person we were following. And if we’re not following the right one, then we’re never going to get on the right boat. And so if I’m following Jesus first, and then I follow people who love Jesus, then I’m on the right path. That doesn’t mean they won’t let me down because they will.
Ask yourself, this situation in church work or anything else? The people that I’m leading or the people I’m following, do they love Jesus with reckless abandonment? And if they don’t, then you’re going to have issue. That’s it. What do you think? It’s interesting because. I don’t work in a church. I don’t know. That there are a lot of people. That I work with that follow Jesus. But that doesn’t give me. An out. True. To not be. That example. That makes sense. A hundred percent, right?
And I think accountability is a big thing there. I think. I’m accountable to Jesus and Jesus alone. And so where no matter what I’m at or where I’m at, I got to exemplify him and show him because people need to know about him. You know why? Because he’s incredible. Amen man changed my mind. He changed my life and I know that he can change anyone else that I get to lead. And so if I’m leading them, I’m leading them to Jesus. True. No, that’s so true.
That is so true and it was beautiful. And ultimately that’s what leadership is Chris? Whether you’re doing it like where Wayne is or where you are, or even at a church where I am we’re leading people, hopefully that they see Jesus in us. Amen. And if they don’t, I want to challenge you as leaders reevaluate your leadership because you’re messing it. That is our number one goal. You’re exactly right.
That’s good stuff I feel like I need to be writing that down Dave. It stuff. It took me a minute to get warmed up right now. We’re rolling here. Off you go. I don’t know about all that, but I’m trying.
So let’s talk about engagement and followers have different levels of engagement, and in fact, there’s five levels. And as you can see, the engagement matters quite a bit with followers. The first level of followers are completely isolated and they’re unengaged.
I’m going to put you on the spot, Dave, if you were to give a percentage of average church goers how many people would you say are. Completely unengaged. That’s fair. Not at Christchurch case anyone from.
But the other churches. Honestly sometimes This is horrible to say, I’ve read things that say 20% sometimes. I can honestly say with Christ church, I feel like we have heavy involvement. 70, 80% easy and we’re working on everyone to get involved in the church .
Again, people don’t want to engage in what you’re doing. Sometimes engagement’s a good word that I don’t know. We, if we understand if we’re engaging with people, it means we’re helping them to see what we believe. Yes. And so that’s an important thing in my life. And if I’m messing that, so the average church, I don’t know. I think the churches that I’ve been, I was at one church where I was lucky. If it was 10%, I’ve been one church where I’m currently at, where it feels like sometimes it’s 90%. So you just don’t know.
90%. I feel like we do really well if I’m honest with you, but I do think I do. Definitely. I still think we were missing people and one of the things Jeff Gaines and I do who’s. Leading our lead pastor. And I worked with him. One of the things that we try to do in everything that we do is how do we get people more involved? How do we get them to come on Sunday nights? How do we do stuff?
That would help them see how important Christ is in their life. And if we’re missing that we’re missing everything. You’re right. One of the ways that we do that at the church. Is when you keep talking about engagement. It’s not like in term, it’s a way of life. And the focus is literally just sitting down.
Across from somebody. And letting them. Let you experience what they go through. That’s good. Very good. It’s really good. And for example, like we have upward Wayne and I got the hangout. I’m not going in details about what happened.
Oh, my aching back. Let us pray. If you ever want to really find out how much he loves Jesus what’s fifth and sixth grade basketball game and watch the parents afterwards. Let us pray. But I got to hang out with Wayne and he got to see me in a situation that where it was intense at times. He got to settle me down and it was good. It was good for us just to be there for each other. And I think.
The only way you do that’s to do life. You got to find places where there’s upward or it’s a small group or whatever it is. That’s your following and then that’s it. I know that’s mainly church. I know I’m talking to that, but even in your work, you’ve got to find ways to have lunch with people. You got to have, find ways to get to know the people on just a little bit deeper level.
Amen. That’s true. Yeah. So we discussed the people who are unengaged. What about the next level up the bystanders or observers? Who show up and they’re there, but they don’t do anything.
Again, don’t ask me how many are that is church. No, we don’t want the oh. And here’s the thing that I think you need to ask of you as you’re listening to this. How am I at my workplace? How am I at my church? Yeah. How am I doing in, other places in life where God’s called me to lead?
What am I doing? And I, am I an engaged in, what do I need to do to get my head there? Absolutely. And, moving on the next step up from that or that the participants. And they’re partially engaged and they’re even willing to take a stand on some issues. Gotcha. Good stuff. Moving up from there, we’ve got activists. They feel strongly about the leader and the leader’s policies, and they’ll even act on their own beliefs.
But it’s still not what we’re looking for. Correct? Correct. We’re moving at it. This is the last one. These are the diehards and they’re dedicated to the cause they’re deeply committed to supporting or opposing the leaders. A diehard can be on either side.
Gotcha. Explain that either side of what. You can have a follower who is a diehard who completely supports everything you do, because they believe in you. they know that you are a man of God or perhaps you’ve made them angry and they show up at church every time just to oppose everything you do. And there’s still diehard. Yeah. I’ve met that. Both of those people actually.
So that’s interesting. That’s crazy is. And not in Christchurch. Not at all. But other churches I’ve been in. I heard that. That’s good. With all this in mind. And keep in mind, the followership is brand new. They’re just started studying this and the academics are just starting to put this out. We’ve got a new co-created leadership process.
The leaders behaviors are influence attempts on the followers and they have to work together for leadership. So we study all this on leadership, but if we don’t have followers that are engaged, you’re not going to be successful.
A hundred percent. And I believe that with church work, I believe that with anything. Even like ministers groups, I’ve been in, sometimes we’re all trying to do the same thing, which is to love our community. And sometimes we’re trying to compete with each other and to get other people.
To come to our church from their church. Sure. The goal shouldn’t be that in church work, the goal should be, how are we looking at following Christ and loving people and doing what our niche is doing, what we do and do it well, At Christ church. Our goal is for people to see that they have real hope in Jesus.
That’s everything that motivates me when I get up and when I walk and when I talk and I want to motivate people to the hope they have in Jesus. Very good. And I’ve got five questions. I want to ask Dave and Wayne, I want you to say true or false. If you think an exemplary leader does this.
Are you worried, Wayne? Oh, I’m terrified.
They haven’t seen the answers. I’m going to open it up now, let us pray. You should start with Dave.
All right. Then I tell you guys, I love Wayne. Take that back. Number one followers. Get the job done. Is that true or false? Oh, so I can’t say sometimes. Nope. It’s just one or the other. Get the job done. Oh, I’m going to go with true. Wayne I’ll go with the truth. The true is the answer. You’re correct.
Thank you. Leaders can lead all they want, but it is the followers that gets the job done. Amen. That’s good. The second one. Now we’re talking about the exemplary followers work in the best interest of the organization’s mission.
So are we talking that they should do that? Yes. True. Wayne. Sure. You’re exactly right. Two for two aisle. Good job.
Me and my blood pressure’s high. What are you doing? Number three followers support the leader. True or false. True. Sure. Very good. We’re on a roll. Number four followers challenge the leader. I think true to that. Wayne. What do you think. I think sure. Excellent. They should. And they should, if they’re doing their thing right.
Again, let me just say that’s accountability. I should know that somebody can ask me, what are you doing with this? And I should be able to say, this is where I am, and this is what I’m doing, because I’m accountable to those who are following me and. In my opinion. So you’re absolutely right.
Here’s the last one. Followers learn from leaders. True. Wayne. Sure you got it. You guys got a hundred percent way to go. Why didn’t you tell us they were all true.
I wish you all could see the look. That the look of fear on Dave. Fear, nothing. That was my blood pressure going through. I’ve got to get my pills out. Thank you very much. So now that’s that’s the basics of followership. I want to go over the strengths of followership. Followership we now know is an important part of the leadership equation and that’s something we did not know 20 years ago.
Followership forces a whole new way for people to think about leadership and a focus on the followers. Back in the day, followers were not a focus of anything.
True because we were all doing our own thing. Yes. I think this happens in church, work to. I think we forget about the people that are in the pew that we’re trying to love on. we’re not just trying to get people in the church. We’re trying to bless those that are already there.
Oh, yes. The thing is though, when you bless those that are already there, it’s very important that you understand that they’re going to bless you too, because it’s a team and they become part of the one community loving Jesus together. That’s what church work ultimately is. If we can get there. Does that make sense?
It makes perfect sense. What do you think Wayne? I think. I agree with what you’re saying. Okay. But also, no. No, but don’t call me that.
It’s important to remember that their followers are not employees. That’s true. They’re making a conscious decision. To get behind in something you support or something you advocate or whatever it is. Let me say this. I know we got a few seconds, but let me just say this, because this is very important. I think you also have to understand that as leaders we make mistakes and.
I think when you follow. People you have to give them grace and. I don’t know if we do that enough. I think we’re really quick to judge. And as soon as we blow it, that’s it. Sorry, you can’t lead me anymore. The truth is. If you’re following people, you’re going to be disappointed at some point every time.
If you’re just putting it on us, we’re going to let you down. Is that fair? We are definitely going to let you down. Yes. We’re only human and we’re mess.
But I wanted to share this with you. We discussed percentages a minute ago and during all of my leadership training, as I’m getting my doctorate. We had a study where we show percentages. And you consider your team in a rowboat. 10% of your team is actively rowing. And they’re trying to get the team back to shore or out to sea, wherever you’re going, but they’re working with you and they’re working hard.
60% of the team. Is not doing anything they’re lounging around and sitting there. 20% are just doing minimal effort, just bare minimum. And 10% is actively working against the team.
And that’s something to think about when you look at your team and think, why are 10% of my people working against me here? I haven’t reached them in some way. So let’s go back to what we were just talking about because we’re leading people and people will let you down as well.
And one of the things I don’t think we teach enough as leaders, ministers, whatever the point is, you can’t put your faith in a person. You put your faith in. in God. And if you don’t do that, You’re totally missing the whole point. Absolutely. And now here’s the last thing I’ve got. This is how to be an exemplary follower.
And there are seven steps. And I want you guys to think of a relationship you have, where you are the follower, and you don’t have to answer these. And I want people listening, think about the relationship where you are a follower, and we’re going to find out if you’re an exemplary follower. The first step to being an exemplary follower is to pray for your leader and even let your leaders know you’re praying for them.
A hundred percent, I think. If we’re not, especially in church work, but in anything. That’s the thing I don’t think that people do when they’re leading outside of the church enough. I don’t think we, we pray for those that we get to lead I worked for the state and I realized when I was working.
There that I needed to love the people that God put in my path. And if I didn’t. I was going to mess it up. I was working with juveniles and at first I was like, man, these kids are messes, but then I realized we all are. And so that’s good. Yeah. It’s really important that you understand that no matter what, who God puts you with is who God puts you with. Yes. So quit complaining about it and start seeing how you can use it and pray for them.
Absolutely. right. For them. Thank you. Number two. With your leader, ask for feedback on your work and your attitude. You can even invite confrontation. If you get confrontation, this can bring greater freedom in your relationship and it helps you be less defensive when conflict arise. And that’s hard to do because I think sometimes as leaders, we don’t care what they think.
You always have to ask and be accountable and say, how’s it going? What can we do better? What are we done? Good. And what can we do better? Is that fair? That’s. Yeah, that’s fair. Do you think Wayne. I remember when I was in college. You were talking about conflict and, having these kinds of uncomfortable conversations.
Every roommate I had.
It came to a point in the semester where we would get in a physical fight. The wow. Oh, my gosh. That’s just in, just because we had such strong opinions on different things and we would let the tension and build up to the point where it would just spill over. And after that, We were fine. Wow. So we like.
We got closer. And everything worked out great. Who won.
Nobody. Oh, Yeah, one of my roommates was 6 2, 2 75. Gosh. What’s wrong with being 6 2, 2 75. Wait a minute. I’m not. I am. That’s what’s wrong with it.
So number three. Ask your leader, how you can make their job easier. Here’s number four. And this is something that you touched on earlier. Dave support your leaders in front of other people. If someone is slandering a leader, refuse to participate in this and don’t add any negative comments. Ephesians 4 29 through 32 tells us, let no corrupting talk, come out of your mouth, but only such as is good for building up. And it fits the occasion.
One thing I can guarantee you that there’s pastors listening to this. There’s always been a situation where you walked into the church and there were people there you didn’t expect to be there. And they stopped talking when you walked in and you’re like, what the heck is going on? Instead of that person who had an issue with you coming to you and it hurts when that happens, but I think some of that’s on us because we need to make sure that we’re engaging before it gets to that point. Now.
It’s taken me a long time to even realize you’re still gonna have that. There’s going to be times when that happens. Sure. But I think you can, to quote that great. Theologian, Barney Fife nip it in the bud. Love it. Yes. Nip it in the bud nip. You have to work hard at making sure that they know your heart your purpose and what you’re trying to accomplish. And if that’s.
Not enough, then they can go have their small groups and talk about you. But other than that, you do your best to do your best. That’s good. Do your best to do your best. I like that. That ain’t good. So number five is to share with your leader. Openly discuss your plans, your problems, your growth, or your ideas, let them in on your personal life or as much as appropriate.
Obviously some leaders are better listeners than others, but don’t give up too quickly. If you don’t get the response that you’re looking for. Keep trying. A hundred percent. And I think we as leaders. This is the one thing that I try to ask myself every day. Am I working hard? To listen and know what that person’s saying, or am I wondering what I’m going to have for lunch? And sometimes I’m just going to be transparent. I wonder what I’m having for lunch. And I don’t want to be that guy. And so I have to learn to look at that person and to hear that person and to actually.
Let it go through my head so I can process what they’re saying to me. That’s true. I think that’s really important. It’s very, yeah, I agree. Very important. Number six is another one you touched on earlier, Dave. Encourage your leaders often about positive qualities everyone needs encouragement and leaders sometimes are the neediest. Proverbs 3 27 tells us do not withhold good from those to whom it is due
yeah. And I think what we talked about that we talked about Barnabas and how incredible would it be that your name means son of encouragement? Oh my gosh. Everything he did was about encouraging others. It was about lifting people up, even though there were times that you read, he and Paul had some issue, you still see that he worked hard.
Even, at the end they came back together. It’s always. Hard, but it’s important to encourage people. And love on them, even though you may not like them sometimes. And I understand that how hard that is. But I think it’s essential. What do you think Wayne? I think it’s important. It’s also important.
To define the encouragement in some settings. Oh I don’t need. People too. Be like. Very over the top but if. One of my guys. Comments positively about something that I’m actually working on.
That’s encouraging to me. So it’s not necessarily like some platitude. But it could look like. Some plan that I put in place is actually working. Just acknowledgement of that. And as you’re listening to this, think of someone that you can think of that has encouraged you. I know at least two guys here encourage me all the time. I’ve got a friend at church, Jeff Moore. He’s always lifting me up and making me think about the right things.
Even when he knows I’m frustrated, he’ll come up to me and go, man, do you know how much I love you? And that means so much. It does when you’re going through something or when you’re tailing with people. And so I think it’s really important to give that affirmation and to also just say, man, I am here for you. What can we do? I’m in your corner?
I love it. And number seven goes right along with what you were saying, Wayne. Express gratitude for specific things. Your leader does. Most leaders receive far more criticism than they ever do. Thanks. And in fact we’re directed to do this Hebrews 3:13 says, but exhort one another every day, as long as it is called today, that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
we’re told to do that every day. Yeah. And. You know what I think that means for me is that I can’t get used to this, the sin that’s in my life. And. I think one of the biggest things of sin is when we repeat it, I think. The biggest thing is when you ask God to forgive it, try to get rid of it.
Yes, that’s hard to do because I think some of us are more inept to. To follow certain sins that we struggle with. And we all struggle with sins. You need to hear me, but what am I doing to try to get right. And to get one with him so I can lead people the right way, because if I’m not, it’s going to be hard for me to lead others. If I’m disappointed with the way I’m acting.
And, the Lord can use you in a mighty ministry in spite of you in spite of you. Amen. If you take a little time and effort to become an exemplary follower, who knows what great things can happen. Amen. Luke 18:22 says this. When Jesus heard this, he said to him, one thing, you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven.
And come follow me. What are you giving up to follow Jesus? Are you willing to give up everything to follow him? I know some people that have done that. One of the guys that have, has always impressed me here in town, David Lane just quit and went to Guatemala and started telling people about Jesus that’s.
Credible right. Are you willing to give everything up and follow Jesus? And if not, I love you. You need to work at it because it’s all a work in progress. The ultimate goal is am I following him? Thanks for listening today. If there’s anything we can do for you, please let us know. We want to pray for you. We want to lift your ministry up, lift your workplace up, lift whatever we can to help you be a better leader, because that’s the goal I’m here at Lead 12:12, and both.
God’s men say, Amen, thanks. Have a great day.