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1 00:00:00,100 --> 00:00:00,900 Hey, Chris.2 00:00:00,900 --> 00:00:01,601 Hey, Dave.3 00:00:01,601 --> 00:00:04,104 What's going on? Hey, man, how's it going?4 00:00:04,137 --> 00:00:06,239 It's going good. I got a question for you.5 00:00:06,272 --> 00:00:07,207 What's up?6 00:00:07,207 --> 00:00:10,276 How can people get hold of us for Lead 12:12?7 00:00:10,343 --> 00:00:11,344 Well, that's a great question.8 00:00:11,344 --> 00:00:14,814 We've got a great looking website and we've got a lot of functionality on there.9 00:00:14,848 --> 00:00:18,284 It's www.lead1212.com.10 00:00:18,318 --> 00:00:20,820 I'm glad something has functionality on it.11 00:00:21,287 --> 00:00:21,921 That's right.12 00:00:21,921 --> 00:00:24,958 Hey, everybody, check us out.13 00:00:41,875 --> 00:00:44,077 This is Lead 12:12,14 00:00:44,411 --> 00:00:49,716 a podcast on Christ centered leadership based on Romans 12:12, Rejoice in hope.15 00:00:49,883 --> 00:00:53,019 Be patient and tribulation, be constant in prayer.16 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:54,754 Thanks for listening.17 00:00:54,754 --> 00:00:57,390 Now here's Chris and Dave.18 00:00:57,624 --> 00:00:58,691 Hey, everybody.19 00:00:58,691 --> 00:01:00,060 We're glad you're listening.20 00:01:00,060 --> 00:01:02,429 We're excited that God's brought us together,21 00:01:02,429 --> 00:01:07,033 and we know that this this time together won't be wasted, right, Chris?22 00:01:07,067 --> 00:01:07,867 That's right.23 00:01:07,867 --> 00:01:09,969 So Chris, what are we learning about today?24 00:01:10,036 --> 00:01:13,473 Today, we're going to go along with something called followership.25 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,543 It's what makes a follower a good follower.26 00:01:16,709 --> 00:01:17,143 Right.27 00:01:17,143 --> 00:01:22,015 And I think every one of us has to follow something or we'll never learn anything.28 00:01:22,048 --> 00:01:23,283 You know, you're exactly right, Dave.29 00:01:23,283 --> 00:01:26,019 If you break it down like, I may be a leader at work.30 00:01:26,286 --> 00:01:27,821 I'm also a follower at work.31 00:01:27,821 --> 00:01:30,490 I can be a leader at home and I can be a follower at home.32 00:01:30,690 --> 00:01:32,959 I'm a follower at church. You're a leader at church.33 00:01:32,992 --> 00:01:35,662 We are followers, probably more than we are leaders.34 00:01:35,762 --> 00:01:36,329 Amen.35 00:01:36,329 --> 00:01:38,164 And I think one of the things36 00:01:38,164 --> 00:01:42,168 that really good leaders learn how to do is to follow.37 00:01:42,168 --> 00:01:44,370 Once you learn how to follow, then you can learn how to lead38 00:01:44,370 --> 00:01:46,272 because you know what your expectations are39 00:01:46,272 --> 00:01:49,742 because you were able to show those expectations to someone else.40 00:01:49,776 --> 00:01:50,610 You're exactly right.41 00:01:50,610 --> 00:01:53,580 And as anyone ever laid out to you, how to be a good follower.42 00:01:53,580 --> 00:01:55,849 I think we're going to do it right now.43 00:01:55,849 --> 00:01:58,184 You read my. Mind. Yes, I did.44 00:01:58,218 --> 00:01:59,686 I'll be here all week.45 00:01:59,686 --> 00:02:04,224 So up until now, we've examined how leaders affect the work of followers.46 00:02:04,657 --> 00:02:08,561 We focused on how leaders motivate people to engage in adaptive work.47 00:02:08,862 --> 00:02:11,564 And today we're going to be concerned with followers48 00:02:11,564 --> 00:02:14,667 and the critical role they play in the leadership process.49 00:02:15,068 --> 00:02:18,004 Of course, the act of leaving needs the act of following.50 00:02:18,004 --> 00:02:20,440 Without followers, there can be no leaders.51 00:02:20,940 --> 00:02:22,142 Makes sense.52 00:02:22,142 --> 00:02:26,045 So for a lot of people, being a follower in the process of followership53 00:02:26,412 --> 00:02:29,682 can have bad associations throughout history.54 00:02:29,682 --> 00:02:32,886 It's only the leaders that take the center stage and not the followers.55 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:35,755 Children can be taught at an early age in school56 00:02:35,755 --> 00:02:38,191 that it's better to be a leader instead of a follower.57 00:02:38,625 --> 00:02:40,860 You know, in athletics, both you and I were athletes.58 00:02:40,927 --> 00:02:44,063 Recognition goes to the leaders and not the team members.59 00:02:44,130 --> 00:02:46,699 Amy and with me are using that term loosely.60 00:02:46,699 --> 00:02:50,203 But yeah, we I tried. You succeed.61 00:02:50,236 --> 00:02:51,604 Don't let him fool you.62 00:02:51,604 --> 00:02:53,840 He was a great football player. I was nice.63 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,042 But that's OK. Keep going. You know you got you.64 00:02:56,042 --> 00:02:59,145 When someone applies for a job, they're usually questioned65 00:02:59,145 --> 00:03:03,116 about their leadership abilities and not their followership abilities.66 00:03:03,349 --> 00:03:07,153 You know, it's evident society applauds leadership and not followership,67 00:03:07,153 --> 00:03:10,657 and it's simply more interesting to discuss how leaders use their power68 00:03:10,890 --> 00:03:13,326 than to discuss how followers respond to power.69 00:03:13,326 --> 00:03:14,661 Would you agree with that? Yeah.70 00:03:14,661 --> 00:03:17,497 And I think, you know, I grew up, not everybody can be a chief.71 00:03:17,664 --> 00:03:20,767 And so right, the chief got their certain way.72 00:03:20,767 --> 00:03:22,802 And it wasn't because he just got promoted.73 00:03:22,802 --> 00:03:25,505 A lot of times. It's because he learned to lead. Yes.74 00:03:25,505 --> 00:03:27,540 And he learned to lead by.75 00:03:27,740 --> 00:03:29,008 Learning to follow first.76 00:03:29,008 --> 00:03:31,010 You have to. I think it's a really good question.77 00:03:31,010 --> 00:03:33,079 I think it's a really good thing to talk about.78 00:03:33,079 --> 00:03:35,114 Hey, man, I'll be here all week while I.79 00:03:35,114 --> 00:03:37,450 Was on board. With a man and a man.80 00:03:39,285 --> 00:03:41,221 Here's the shocking thing.81 00:03:41,221 --> 00:03:42,822 It was for me anyway.82 00:03:42,822 --> 00:03:47,694 Only recently have the academics begin to study followership,83 00:03:48,061 --> 00:03:51,030 and only recently has anything been published about it.84 00:03:51,397 --> 00:03:55,301 That came from Mendel in 1990 and Charles in 95.85 00:03:55,802 --> 00:04:00,740 Before that, everything was focused on the leader only and not the follower86 00:04:00,740 --> 00:04:02,709 and how the follower can affect the leader.87 00:04:02,709 --> 00:04:05,945 No one paid attention to followers whatsoever until88 00:04:05,979 --> 00:04:07,614 Mendel and Charles came out.89 00:04:07,614 --> 00:04:10,617 Another guy came out with the art of followership.90 00:04:10,650 --> 00:04:13,853 How great followers create great leaders and organizations?91 00:04:13,853 --> 00:04:14,921 Think about that.92 00:04:14,921 --> 00:04:17,023 Can a follower create a great leader.93 00:04:17,357 --> 00:04:19,959 And a follower? Create a great leader?94 00:04:20,727 --> 00:04:23,096 Um yes, it has to happen, right?95 00:04:23,129 --> 00:04:25,265 I live that life every day.96 00:04:25,265 --> 00:04:31,137 I can a lot of people that report to me at work, and they are very, very smart.97 00:04:31,170 --> 00:04:33,239 They do their job. They know what they're doing,98 00:04:33,239 --> 00:04:35,041 and they make my job a lot easier.99 00:04:35,041 --> 00:04:36,442 Amen and amen.100 00:04:36,442 --> 00:04:37,610 Here's another example.101 00:04:37,610 --> 00:04:40,947 A soldier following orders from the platoon to complete a mission102 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:45,385 or maybe passengers following the boarding agent's instructions to get on the plane103 00:04:45,585 --> 00:04:48,688 are good examples of being a follower, and they're positive examples104 00:04:48,688 --> 00:04:49,722 of being a follower.105 00:04:49,722 --> 00:04:52,859 Sometimes you can have negative examples of being a follower, too.106 00:04:53,126 --> 00:04:54,994 What about the followers of David Koresh107 00:04:54,994 --> 00:04:57,630 and the Branch Davidians or followers of Jim Jones?108 00:04:57,997 --> 00:04:59,132 Yeah, they.109 00:04:59,132 --> 00:05:02,535 We can all be mis misled, and I think a lot of that is110 00:05:02,535 --> 00:05:04,604 and this is something that I've learned.111 00:05:04,604 --> 00:05:08,574 When you are following someone, you need to always understand112 00:05:08,574 --> 00:05:12,245 that the most important thing is, are they following Jesus?113 00:05:12,245 --> 00:05:13,513 And if they're not?114 00:05:13,513 --> 00:05:16,282 The Bible says bad company corrupts good character.115 00:05:16,282 --> 00:05:22,622 And so if you're following the wrong lead, it will lead you down the wrong way.116 00:05:23,623 --> 00:05:26,359 So I'm going to let you teach a little on that because you hit it on the head.117 00:05:26,359 --> 00:05:29,662 Are you saying followers have a duty and a responsibility?118 00:05:30,029 --> 00:05:30,797 We do.119 00:05:30,797 --> 00:05:35,034 And especially when you when you look at it from the perspective120 00:05:35,034 --> 00:05:37,670 that we're supposed to follow, Jesus Christ.121 00:05:37,770 --> 00:05:40,673 Hey, in Philippians two, amen,122 00:05:40,707 --> 00:05:44,444 it says that we are to have an attitude that of Christ Jesus.123 00:05:44,711 --> 00:05:48,047 And that means we are to what have an attitude of Christ Jesus.124 00:05:48,181 --> 00:05:50,583 Yes. Sometimes I think we try to break all that down125 00:05:50,583 --> 00:05:52,785 instead of really take what it says and do it.126 00:05:53,453 --> 00:05:55,321 James says, don't really listen to the word of God.127 00:05:55,321 --> 00:05:57,323 And so to see yourself, but do it.128 00:05:57,323 --> 00:05:59,992 When we become doers of God's word, it129 00:05:59,992 --> 00:06:03,563 changes everything because we're following God, not the world.130 00:06:03,830 --> 00:06:06,265 We need to follow people who follow God.131 00:06:06,999 --> 00:06:09,235 Oh, here we go. It started now.132 00:06:09,936 --> 00:06:10,870 Oh, crazy.133 00:06:12,772 --> 00:06:13,673 Hallelujah.134 00:06:13,673 --> 00:06:15,274 Oh, come on now.135 00:06:15,274 --> 00:06:17,710 I love that a man and a man.136 00:06:17,710 --> 00:06:19,712 So following what you just said.137 00:06:19,846 --> 00:06:23,149 Followers have an ethical duty to consider the morality138 00:06:23,149 --> 00:06:26,352 of their actions and the outcomes of what they do as a follower.139 00:06:26,352 --> 00:06:29,122 And how do we, as Christians, know that first, John, for one,140 00:06:29,122 --> 00:06:32,225 tells us that we were to test the spirits and see if they are from God141 00:06:32,258 --> 00:06:33,893 and continuing on first .142 00:06:33,893 --> 00:06:38,030 John, 48, tells us that anyone who does not know love does not know God143 00:06:38,030 --> 00:06:39,599 because God is love.144 00:06:39,599 --> 00:06:43,136 If your leader is teaching or guiding you out of love,145 00:06:43,236 --> 00:06:45,371 that's really all you need to be worried about.146 00:06:45,371 --> 00:06:48,374 I agreed I would take it one step farther147 00:06:48,374 --> 00:06:51,544 and that that has to be the love of Christ.148 00:06:51,577 --> 00:06:52,645 The love of Christ.149 00:06:52,645 --> 00:06:56,182 I think that's the key right there, and that's where I think you're heading in150 00:06:56,716 --> 00:06:57,150 this.151 00:06:58,985 --> 00:07:01,320 I want to thank both of you for clapping on that one,152 00:07:01,654 --> 00:07:05,358 but it's really important that you understand that.153 00:07:05,391 --> 00:07:09,061 I think sometimes we follow leaders that aren't following Christ.154 00:07:09,061 --> 00:07:11,330 Yes, in the church. We. Do.155 00:07:11,431 --> 00:07:14,734 So I say this with love and with compassion.156 00:07:15,101 --> 00:07:19,639 If your is not following Jesus that they're not showing the fruits157 00:07:19,639 --> 00:07:21,240 and the evidence of Christ,158 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,710 then you're probably at the wrong place because they're following the wrong thing.159 00:07:25,077 --> 00:07:27,680 A man to that I could name in that enough.160 00:07:27,713 --> 00:07:28,614 That's beautiful.161 00:07:28,614 --> 00:07:31,484 Well, God uses you ever once. Why he's got a line.162 00:07:31,517 --> 00:07:33,052 Do it right?163 00:07:33,052 --> 00:07:34,821 Yes, we do. That's exactly right.164 00:07:34,821 --> 00:07:36,422 So now this is an interesting part.165 00:07:36,422 --> 00:07:38,157 What types of followers are there?166 00:07:38,157 --> 00:07:40,193 And I'm going to ask you to imagine this in your mind.167 00:07:40,193 --> 00:07:42,462 There's there's two groups of followers.168 00:07:42,829 --> 00:07:47,967 There's role based and there's relational based, a role based follower169 00:07:47,967 --> 00:07:52,572 or followers on a hierarchical system like staff on an org chart .170 00:07:52,572 --> 00:07:54,073 Those are role based followers171 00:07:54,073 --> 00:07:57,844 you follow because the person is above you on the org chart.172 00:07:57,877 --> 00:07:58,744 That's exactly173 00:07:58,744 --> 00:08:02,915 where their power comes from, and the responsibility of that follower174 00:08:02,915 --> 00:08:07,487 is to be an engaged follower and have a positive outcome on the organization.175 00:08:07,587 --> 00:08:11,991 It's kind of a it's a status thing that yes, god, yes, I get that.176 00:08:11,991 --> 00:08:15,194 The other type of follower is a relational based follower,177 00:08:15,428 --> 00:08:19,198 and it's from a social construct perspective such as, oh, let's say,178 00:08:19,198 --> 00:08:23,169 maybe a fitness instructor and an individual and an exercise class.179 00:08:23,603 --> 00:08:25,638 No, I thought I was exactly that one, too.180 00:08:25,638 --> 00:08:27,807 You brought up the fitness part, but181 00:08:28,708 --> 00:08:31,377 I do think I am a relational follower.182 00:08:31,377 --> 00:08:35,781 I like to build those friendships that, yes, you know, I concept183 00:08:35,781 --> 00:08:37,850 people don't care. I want to know, do they know how much care.184 00:08:38,117 --> 00:08:38,818 Whether that's true.185 00:08:38,818 --> 00:08:41,320 Relational, you know, you build that.186 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,391 And, you know, even like with me and you are learning each other,187 00:08:45,391 --> 00:08:48,961 we're learning, you know, how we work on this stuff and how to hang out.188 00:08:48,961 --> 00:08:53,299 I think relational thing is you follow the others lead and you listen to them189 00:08:53,299 --> 00:08:56,469 and you learn as long as they're following Jesus and you're following Jesus.190 00:08:56,469 --> 00:08:58,638 Well, Jesus won't lead you wrong.191 00:08:58,738 --> 00:09:02,041 Everything you said goes perfectly along with this study,192 00:09:02,041 --> 00:09:03,576 except you are not taught any of that.193 00:09:03,576 --> 00:09:06,946 You've just learned that as you've grown along with, it's fantastic.194 00:09:07,847 --> 00:09:09,015 Now, I don't know what to say.195 00:09:09,015 --> 00:09:10,116 I'm blushing. Thank you.196 00:09:13,219 --> 00:09:16,522 Yes, sir, you are a leader at my church.197 00:09:16,522 --> 00:09:19,125 I'm a follower of you at that church.198 00:09:19,292 --> 00:09:21,694 We have a relational base, followership.199 00:09:21,694 --> 00:09:23,596 There is something I do want to say.200 00:09:23,596 --> 00:09:26,632 But see, and here's the thing I would never tell you201 00:09:26,632 --> 00:09:28,935 that I'm in charge of Chris because I'm nine.202 00:09:29,335 --> 00:09:32,004 I'm in charge of trying to do the best I can for203 00:09:32,004 --> 00:09:34,807 Jesus, and hopefully Chris is following that with me.204 00:09:35,174 --> 00:09:40,012 It's it's you've got the same purpose that you're trying to accomplish,205 00:09:40,346 --> 00:09:44,784 and someone may be just different perspective than you have are.206 00:09:44,784 --> 00:09:46,986 And it's not because of status or anything else.207 00:09:47,253 --> 00:09:49,488 It's just because that's what God's given them.208 00:09:49,755 --> 00:09:52,825 You understand pain where some people won't understand pain209 00:09:52,825 --> 00:09:54,794 because you've experienced pain in your life.210 00:09:54,794 --> 00:09:57,797 Yes, and you've related that pain to some of the pain211 00:09:57,797 --> 00:09:59,899 that I have physical pain.212 00:09:59,899 --> 00:10:02,034 And that helps me understand I'm not alone.213 00:10:02,034 --> 00:10:07,106 And all of a sudden you building something that can grow into something incredible.214 00:10:07,106 --> 00:10:08,374 You're exactly right.215 00:10:08,374 --> 00:10:10,176 You know, whether you realize it or not.216 00:10:10,176 --> 00:10:11,577 If you're a leader of the past,217 00:10:11,577 --> 00:10:15,381 you, your leader, you influence people, whether you want to or not, because.218 00:10:15,381 --> 00:10:17,149 Bad or ugly or indifferent?219 00:10:17,149 --> 00:10:17,817 That's right.220 00:10:17,817 --> 00:10:22,088 And it's it's my responsibility as a follower to test those spirits221 00:10:22,388 --> 00:10:26,325 and not become another follower of David Koresh or Jim Jones or anything like that.222 00:10:26,325 --> 00:10:27,493 And that's what the scripture says.223 00:10:27,493 --> 00:10:28,761 That's not actually what it's.224 00:10:28,761 --> 00:10:30,963 Real quickly because I think this is important.225 00:10:30,997 --> 00:10:33,099 How do you test that, Chris?226 00:10:33,099 --> 00:10:36,335 I test that by seeing if it's from the love or the love of God.227 00:10:36,802 --> 00:10:39,672 Does it parallel with God's word? Exactly.228 00:10:40,039 --> 00:10:41,974 We teach that a lot at Christchurch.229 00:10:41,974 --> 00:10:45,845 We taught that just this last weekend that I thought was really powerful message.230 00:10:46,946 --> 00:10:49,849 I wasn't preaching, so I promise I it was really good.231 00:10:49,849 --> 00:10:50,850 It was a great message.232 00:10:50,850 --> 00:10:55,488 And the important part of that that I think we all need to grab on to is,233 00:10:55,921 --> 00:10:56,622 are we?234 00:10:56,622 --> 00:10:57,623 Following people235 00:10:57,623 --> 00:11:01,527 that are following Jesus, I mean, it's got to always come back to that.236 00:11:01,527 --> 00:11:06,032 Exactly sense, gosh, so important, and we see examples of that all the time237 00:11:06,032 --> 00:11:09,535 when that doesn't happen and it can happen and it can happen to anyone.238 00:11:09,568 --> 00:11:11,270 Amen. It does it well.239 00:11:11,270 --> 00:11:15,274 And how many of you are listening and you've been led down the wrong way?240 00:11:15,307 --> 00:11:19,278 I know I have an even in church work, and I thought there were things241 00:11:19,278 --> 00:11:22,581 that I fought over that were not kingdom issues. Yes.242 00:11:22,815 --> 00:11:25,618 And I think those are things243 00:11:25,618 --> 00:11:28,954 that the devil tries to use against us, and it's ignorance.244 00:11:28,954 --> 00:11:32,391 We need to make sure that if we're fighting over something, that's something245 00:11:32,391 --> 00:11:37,496 that we think is important to advance the Kingdom of God.246 00:11:37,496 --> 00:11:39,532 If we're teaching Christian leadership,247 00:11:39,532 --> 00:11:43,669 even whether you're at UK or that's University of Kentucky.248 00:11:43,703 --> 00:11:45,538 For those of you listening. United Kingdom.249 00:11:45,538 --> 00:11:50,476 Just in case wherever you are, you're doing it because you want people250 00:11:50,476 --> 00:11:54,280 to understand that you love Jesus, and that's the example251 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:55,414 you're going to set for them.252 00:11:55,414 --> 00:11:56,348 And I think to that.253 00:11:56,348 --> 00:11:57,149 There we go.254 00:11:57,149 --> 00:11:59,151 That changes lives, guys.255 00:11:59,151 --> 00:12:00,953 Changes lives from the inside out.256 00:12:00,953 --> 00:12:03,222 Oh, you got them going now? Here we go.257 00:12:03,222 --> 00:12:04,256 Oh, freezing.258 00:12:05,324 --> 00:12:06,792 Hallelujah.259 00:12:07,259 --> 00:12:08,527 Love that!260 00:12:08,661 --> 00:12:11,163 Thank you, Jesus. That was beautiful. Amen.261 00:12:11,330 --> 00:12:13,399 So now we know there's two types of followers.262 00:12:13,399 --> 00:12:16,936 You remember that it's role based follower or the relational based follower,263 00:12:17,136 --> 00:12:21,540 and you're probably both types at various points in your life and in every day.264 00:12:21,974 --> 00:12:26,112 But of those two types, the most recognized followership typology265 00:12:26,112 --> 00:12:28,047 is something known as the Kelly typology,266 00:12:28,047 --> 00:12:31,617 and it comes from Robert Kelly in his book The Power of Followership.267 00:12:31,684 --> 00:12:31,984 Mm-Hmm.268 00:12:32,284 --> 00:12:36,689 Kelly argues that the power of followers usually goes unrecognized.269 00:12:36,689 --> 00:12:39,091 I would agree with that. Sure.270 00:12:39,091 --> 00:12:42,061 Followers are a vital part of leadership process.271 00:12:42,061 --> 00:12:44,096 This is what Kelly argues.272 00:12:44,096 --> 00:12:48,200 Kelly emphasized that the motivations of followers and their behavior.273 00:12:48,367 --> 00:12:49,435 And he used those274 00:12:49,435 --> 00:12:54,206 to create the goal of followership, which he calls exemplary followership.275 00:12:54,206 --> 00:12:58,010 And that means the highest level of follower can become OK.276 00:12:58,511 --> 00:13:02,114 So it's kind of I want to reach this mountain.277 00:13:02,281 --> 00:13:03,315 Yes, thing.278 00:13:03,315 --> 00:13:07,520 I picture this in your mind that followers have two styles independent279 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,524 and critical thinking or dependent and uncritical thinking.280 00:13:12,091 --> 00:13:16,028 Can you think about followers that follow you at church day that go into each group281 00:13:16,028 --> 00:13:20,900 independent and critical thinking and dependent and uncritical thinking?282 00:13:21,367 --> 00:13:23,068 Yeah, absolutely.283 00:13:23,068 --> 00:13:27,807 And I think a lot of it's just people will be more out to learn from you284 00:13:27,807 --> 00:13:31,177 when when you come with them, with the right heart and the right, and that's it.285 00:13:31,177 --> 00:13:32,511 That's exactly it.286 00:13:32,511 --> 00:13:35,481 So if we use those two dimensions, according to Kelly,287 00:13:35,714 --> 00:13:37,883 we get five follower types.288 00:13:38,350 --> 00:13:41,387 So these are the five types of followers that we all are.289 00:13:41,821 --> 00:13:45,558 And just because you're one in one place doesn't mean you're the same one290 00:13:45,558 --> 00:13:46,325 in another place,291 00:13:46,325 --> 00:13:49,361 you can be a different type of follower everywhere that you are a follower.292 00:13:50,763 --> 00:13:52,498 So the first of those five types293 00:13:52,498 --> 00:13:56,735 are called passive followers, some people refer to these people as sheep.294 00:13:57,002 --> 00:14:00,639 And these are the people that look to the leader for direction and motivation.295 00:14:00,673 --> 00:14:01,540 Have you heard of these?296 00:14:01,540 --> 00:14:04,076 Do you have any people like that that follow you? Sure.297 00:14:04,109 --> 00:14:08,781 And you know, I think in certain situations,298 00:14:08,781 --> 00:14:12,685 that's that doesn't seem like it's a bad thing, but for the most part,299 00:14:12,685 --> 00:14:16,088 they're not actually putting anything into it.300 00:14:16,088 --> 00:14:20,492 And so honestly, in that situation, it's not like they're doing301 00:14:20,492 --> 00:14:22,962 what the shepherd says. They're just kind of back.302 00:14:22,962 --> 00:14:25,731 They're not helping out and doing anything right.303 00:14:25,831 --> 00:14:27,600 Is that right? That's right.304 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,436 But let me say this there is a good time to be a sheep.305 00:14:30,436 --> 00:14:32,504 Normally it's not a good thing. It's good.306 00:14:32,538 --> 00:14:35,541 But when we follow Christ, we are to be a sheep to his shepherd.307 00:14:35,641 --> 00:14:38,711 And yeah, and the Bible's very clear on that.308 00:14:39,011 --> 00:14:42,548 We are a bunch of sheep and the only way we can make it through309 00:14:42,548 --> 00:14:44,149 this life is under his hand.310 00:14:44,149 --> 00:14:45,885 He's the. Chevrolet Man.311 00:14:45,885 --> 00:14:47,753 The Lord is my shepherd.312 00:14:47,753 --> 00:14:48,821 Amen. There you go.313 00:14:48,821 --> 00:14:51,624 So as a leader, do you want sheep following you?314 00:14:53,058 --> 00:14:54,660 No, very good.315 00:14:54,660 --> 00:14:55,861 Very good.316 00:14:56,128 --> 00:14:59,465 So let's move on, the second type of follower is the conformist.317 00:14:59,498 --> 00:15:01,767 These are the yes men, the yes people.318 00:15:02,134 --> 00:15:04,670 These are the people that are always on the leader side,319 00:15:04,670 --> 00:15:07,306 but they still look to the leader for direction and guidance.320 00:15:07,907 --> 00:15:10,542 And the problem with that is321 00:15:11,443 --> 00:15:15,581 they're not again, they're not helping the situation.322 00:15:15,581 --> 00:15:16,949 They're just making the person323 00:15:16,949 --> 00:15:19,885 think they're doing the right thing when they may be doing the wrong thing324 00:15:20,219 --> 00:15:22,054 and they're going to end up not getting anywhere.325 00:15:22,054 --> 00:15:24,023 And then they're going to wonder why you're right.326 00:15:24,023 --> 00:15:27,459 And you know, there was a time when I was a fighter, when I was a top ten fighter.327 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,129 Yes, people kind of gravitated towards me.328 00:15:30,129 --> 00:15:32,264 Everything that I said was the funniest joke329 00:15:32,264 --> 00:15:35,200 they'd ever heard in their life and in every point that I made330 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,170 was absolute brilliance, and that can start to affect you.331 00:15:38,203 --> 00:15:40,472 That's because they were scared of you.332 00:15:40,472 --> 00:15:41,573 I hope not.333 00:15:41,573 --> 00:15:43,809 I felt a little bit. They saw what they saw.334 00:15:44,276 --> 00:15:47,613 The thing is, they didn't see the real you or they wouldn't have been.335 00:15:47,613 --> 00:15:49,949 And that's that's that's it, though I think sometimes336 00:15:50,282 --> 00:15:52,918 we gravitate towards things we think we want to be,337 00:15:52,918 --> 00:15:55,287 and we don't really get to find out who that really is.338 00:15:55,321 --> 00:15:56,188 That's true.339 00:15:56,188 --> 00:15:59,158 It's a collar. You get on each one of these.340 00:15:59,158 --> 00:16:01,727 They have levels like onions that you can just through.341 00:16:01,727 --> 00:16:04,897 So strip away and look at different things, but we'll keep going.342 00:16:04,930 --> 00:16:06,498 So let's keep real on this one.343 00:16:06,498 --> 00:16:09,435 When you have conformist followers and I've only asked you to name344 00:16:09,435 --> 00:16:10,169 any of that, you do.345 00:16:10,169 --> 00:16:12,171 Do they really contribute anything346 00:16:12,171 --> 00:16:14,907 when they come to the meeting and just agree with everything you say?347 00:16:15,374 --> 00:16:18,644 No. In fact, if anything, they can mislead me.348 00:16:18,944 --> 00:16:21,347 They can make me think I'm going down the right path.349 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:22,915 Absolutely not.350 00:16:22,915 --> 00:16:25,918 And they didn't have enough gumption to tell me.351 00:16:25,918 --> 00:16:27,186 So that's a fair point.352 00:16:27,186 --> 00:16:30,022 So the third type is an alienated follower.353 00:16:30,289 --> 00:16:31,490 These are the people who do354 00:16:31,490 --> 00:16:34,760 think for themselves, but they just bring a lot of negative energy.355 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:35,794 And maybe they're kind356 00:16:35,794 --> 00:16:38,664 of the opposite of a conformist and there will be, you know, people.357 00:16:38,931 --> 00:16:39,531 Oh yeah.358 00:16:39,531 --> 00:16:45,070 And another thing that can that can really hurt a leader is when359 00:16:45,070 --> 00:16:49,742 all they're getting is cynicism change, you know, negative, Nancy, if you will.360 00:16:49,742 --> 00:16:50,943 That's a tough environment.361 00:16:50,943 --> 00:16:54,847 It is, and you're not going to grow, you're not going to do anything.362 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,317 You're just going to kind of sit there like you're you're walking on363 00:16:58,684 --> 00:17:02,654 on the same area over and over and over and over, and you're not364 00:17:02,654 --> 00:17:04,423 you're not getting anywhere.365 00:17:04,423 --> 00:17:06,892 No one grows and it doesn't help anyone, correct?366 00:17:07,226 --> 00:17:09,895 So the fourth type is called the pragmatic followers.367 00:17:09,895 --> 00:17:11,663 These are the fence sitters.368 00:17:11,663 --> 00:17:15,300 These people support the status quo, but they don't get on board with anything369 00:17:15,300 --> 00:17:17,036 until someone else does.370 00:17:17,036 --> 00:17:18,737 They wait and see what the crowd does,371 00:17:18,737 --> 00:17:21,040 and then that's what they're going to do as well.372 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,208 Which obviously isn't good.373 00:17:23,609 --> 00:17:27,679 No, because we're not looking for people to follow everybody else.374 00:17:27,679 --> 00:17:31,417 We're looking for someone to lead people to go the right way.375 00:17:31,450 --> 00:17:34,486 And again, I have to reemphasize376 00:17:34,820 --> 00:17:38,891 as we talk about each of these things thinking the pattern of following Christ.377 00:17:39,191 --> 00:17:39,691 And the.378 00:17:39,691 --> 00:17:43,529 Pattern of what's it look like for me to be a person379 00:17:43,529 --> 00:17:46,932 following Jesus, leading other people to follow Jesus?380 00:17:46,932 --> 00:17:47,900 Oh, that's so good.381 00:17:47,900 --> 00:17:49,001 Amen. Right.382 00:17:49,001 --> 00:17:51,837 That well, that's the key, I think, for Christian leadership383 00:17:51,837 --> 00:17:54,306 and Christ centered leadership, which is our goal here.384 00:17:54,339 --> 00:17:59,278 So the fifth type, these are the types that Tilly call the exemplary followers.385 00:17:59,311 --> 00:18:01,480 These are called the star followers.386 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:02,548 They're active.387 00:18:02,548 --> 00:18:03,615 They're positive,388 00:18:03,615 --> 00:18:07,352 and they provide independent, constructive criticism to the leader.389 00:18:07,453 --> 00:18:10,122 They don't just complain. They tell them how to make it better.390 00:18:10,122 --> 00:18:10,989 And that's good.391 00:18:10,989 --> 00:18:14,760 You have to have somebody that you're not afraid to argue392 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,830 with or have a different opinion with that.393 00:18:17,830 --> 00:18:21,467 You know that at the end of it, you both can come to a conclusion that may394 00:18:21,700 --> 00:18:24,136 you both have some good side insight to it.395 00:18:24,470 --> 00:18:26,405 And so I think that's really important.396 00:18:26,405 --> 00:18:29,975 I know I've got a few people on my team that I really trust, and I would call them397 00:18:29,975 --> 00:18:30,909 star followers.398 00:18:30,909 --> 00:18:33,545 And when I have an idea that may be just a little too crazy,399 00:18:33,545 --> 00:18:36,648 I'll pull them aside and say, Let me, let me bounce something off of you.400 00:18:36,648 --> 00:18:39,818 Tell me what you think about this, and I know they're going to tell me the truth.401 00:18:39,818 --> 00:18:43,722 They're not going to immediately agree or disagree, and I really value that.402 00:18:43,989 --> 00:18:45,791 That's that's what we all need.403 00:18:45,791 --> 00:18:47,359 Do you have star followers, Dave?404 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:52,998 100%, and I have people that I know that even if they don't agree with me, well,405 00:18:52,998 --> 00:18:56,802 we can work it out and follow together and and learn to.406 00:18:57,069 --> 00:18:58,871 Sometimes I think in leadership,407 00:18:58,871 --> 00:19:02,908 you have to agree to disagree, but also work towards the final goal.408 00:19:03,142 --> 00:19:05,344 And the goal is what are you trying to accomplish?409 00:19:05,644 --> 00:19:07,813 Oh, I agree. I agree completely.410 00:19:08,113 --> 00:19:10,983 So those are the follower types, according to Kelly.411 00:19:11,350 --> 00:19:15,354 And we can break that down and say that the star followers have four qualities412 00:19:15,754 --> 00:19:17,990 they self manage and think for themselves.413 00:19:18,390 --> 00:19:21,226 They have a strong commitment to organizational goals.414 00:19:21,593 --> 00:19:22,761 They build competence415 00:19:22,761 --> 00:19:27,232 and they master their job skills, and they're ethical and courageous.416 00:19:27,232 --> 00:19:29,168 We may not normally think of a follower417 00:19:29,168 --> 00:19:31,870 as courageous, but if you're a star follower, you're courageous.418 00:19:32,304 --> 00:19:33,472 I think that's important.419 00:19:33,472 --> 00:19:34,373 I don't know about you,420 00:19:34,373 --> 00:19:37,876 but when I was in kindergarten, my goal was to get one of those stars I.421 00:19:37,876 --> 00:19:39,444 Want to star. You're right.422 00:19:39,444 --> 00:19:42,781 So it's kind of funny that we're back there in kindergarten423 00:19:42,781 --> 00:19:45,918 trying to get that star because I think that should be kind424 00:19:45,918 --> 00:19:48,086 of what we're all trying to head to. It is.425 00:19:48,420 --> 00:19:51,190 And, you know, followership is so big we decided to break this down426 00:19:51,190 --> 00:19:52,491 into two episodes. This is.427 00:19:52,491 --> 00:19:54,693 The last topic we're going to cover in this episode,428 00:19:54,993 --> 00:19:57,696 but it's an important one, it's called reversing the lens.429 00:19:57,963 --> 00:20:00,532 This is something that just recently came out.430 00:20:00,899 --> 00:20:04,603 In fact, my notes say it's the most recent study and followership.431 00:20:04,970 --> 00:20:08,740 And it's rather than focusing on how the leader affects the followers,432 00:20:08,740 --> 00:20:13,011 we reverse the lens and we see how the followers affect the leaders.433 00:20:13,378 --> 00:20:16,515 In this approach, we're interested in the impact of followers,434 00:20:16,748 --> 00:20:19,551 their characteristics and how their characteristics435 00:20:19,551 --> 00:20:21,687 affect the leaders behaviors.436 00:20:21,687 --> 00:20:23,822 Have you been affected by a follower?437 00:20:23,822 --> 00:20:25,257 Sure, 100%.438 00:20:25,257 --> 00:20:31,063 I think everyone has had it in different ways, and we have to be honest about that.439 00:20:31,096 --> 00:20:33,498 There's good and there's bad, and you have to shoot straight440 00:20:33,498 --> 00:20:35,901 with yourself to figure out which one you need to follow.441 00:20:35,901 --> 00:20:37,903 And hopefully it's good. You're so true.442 00:20:38,103 --> 00:20:39,771 The field of leadership is so young.443 00:20:39,771 --> 00:20:43,842 We are just now beginning to study the impact of followers have on leaders.444 00:20:43,842 --> 00:20:44,643 We've all felt it.445 00:20:44,643 --> 00:20:47,179 We know it exists, but there's very few studies about it.446 00:20:47,646 --> 00:20:51,883 Yeah, I think one of the things we all need to work on, myself447 00:20:51,883 --> 00:20:55,954 included, is why I lead and it comes back448 00:20:55,954 --> 00:20:59,391 to what we've been talking about and we'll talk more about that in a few seconds.449 00:20:59,391 --> 00:21:00,292 Absolutely.450 00:21:00,292 --> 00:21:01,059 So the last statement451 00:21:01,059 --> 00:21:04,429 I've got about this and this is regarding reversing the lens again.452 00:21:04,796 --> 00:21:09,301 Leaders use their power to influence followers and in turn, followers453 00:21:09,301 --> 00:21:12,738 use their power to either comply or challenge the leader.454 00:21:13,005 --> 00:21:13,672 There you go.455 00:21:13,672 --> 00:21:16,708 So what you're saying is we're working together.456 00:21:16,742 --> 00:21:19,044 Exactly. Leadership is a give and take.457 00:21:19,044 --> 00:21:21,847 Its followers and leaders were together on this.458 00:21:21,913 --> 00:21:23,782 Amen. Amen.459 00:21:23,782 --> 00:21:25,951 Matthew, 16, 24, says this.460 00:21:25,951 --> 00:21:29,888 Then Jesus told his disciples, If anyone would come after me,461 00:21:29,888 --> 00:21:32,991 let him deny himself, take up his cross462 00:21:32,991 --> 00:21:35,627 and follow me.463 00:21:36,328 --> 00:21:40,365 The goal for this is walking in life464 00:21:40,365 --> 00:21:43,969 that we have is Am I following Jesus, man?465 00:21:44,102 --> 00:21:46,138 And 14 six of John?466 00:21:46,138 --> 00:21:49,941 He says this, Jesus said to him, I am the way the truth in life.467 00:21:50,142 --> 00:21:53,278 No one comes to the father except through me.468 00:21:53,312 --> 00:21:53,979 Amen.469 00:21:53,979 --> 00:21:55,380 You want to be a follower?470 00:21:55,380 --> 00:21:56,915 Follow Jesus.471 00:21:56,915 --> 00:21:59,151 That's the goal. That's what we have to do.472 00:21:59,184 --> 00:22:01,086 That's what we want you to do.473 00:22:01,086 --> 00:22:04,189 Tell us, maybe, if you will, some things where you've learned474 00:22:04,189 --> 00:22:07,326 following Jesus change your whole leadership pattern. Yes.475 00:22:07,592 --> 00:22:08,760 Share with that with us.476 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:10,629 We don't want to just talk to you.477 00:22:10,629 --> 00:22:11,797 We want to learn from you.478 00:22:11,797 --> 00:22:16,234 So let us also be able to learn from some of the things479 00:22:16,234 --> 00:22:18,337 that you want to share with us. We'd love to hear from you.480 00:22:18,370 --> 00:22:19,504 How can they do that, Chris?481 00:22:19,504 --> 00:22:21,340 Go to lead 1212 dot com.482 00:22:21,340 --> 00:22:22,841 Have a great day and God bless.483 00:22:25,577 --> 00:22:26,211 This is484 00:22:26,211 --> 00:22:30,115 an LBC production which stands for pounds, if you knew that or not,485 00:22:30,115 --> 00:22:33,752 but it also stands for laughing because we're safe.486 00:22:33,985 --> 00:22:37,422 But we kind of like the panel, so I'm Chris will lift them487 00:22:37,422 --> 00:22:40,492 and I will gain them and we will have a great time.488 00:22:40,525 --> 00:22:41,259 Thanks for listening.